--- title: Ken Burns on How to Teach the Dark Parts of History description: In a video provided exclusively to TIME, Ken Burns talks to a high school teacher about the culture wars and how to teach history. canonical: https://time.com/6312122/ken-burns-teaching-history-video/ author: Olivia B. Waxman article:opinion: false article:content_tier: free article:published_time: 2023-09-12T11:00:00.000Z article:modified_time: 2026-10-19T07:26:28.560Z article:section: History og:title: Ken Burns on How to Teach the Dark Parts of History og:description: In a video provided exclusively to TIME, Ken Burns talks to a high school teacher about the culture wars and how to teach history. og:url: https://time.com/6312122/ken-burns-teaching-history-video/ og:site_name: TIME og:image: https://static.time.com/v3/assets/bltea6093859af6183b/blta47fec0fc6a44b9b/698a402a09208f9be641aaff/230907_KEN_BURNS_INTVW_THUMBNAIL.00_00_41_05.Still002.jpg?branch=production&width=1200&quality=75&auto=webp&crop=16:9 og:image:width: 1920 og:image:height: 1080 og:image:alt: 230907_KEN_BURNS_INTVW_THUMBNAIL.00_00_41_05.Still002 og:type: article twitter:card: summary_large_image twitter:title: Ken Burns on How to Teach the Dark Parts of History twitter:description: In a video provided exclusively to TIME, Ken Burns talks to a high school teacher about the culture wars and how to teach history. twitter:image: https://static.time.com/v3/assets/bltea6093859af6183b/blta47fec0fc6a44b9b/698a402a09208f9be641aaff/230907_KEN_BURNS_INTVW_THUMBNAIL.00_00_41_05.Still002.jpg?branch=production&width=1200&quality=75&auto=webp&crop=16:9 ---  # Ken Burns on How to Teach the Dark Parts of History > Sponsored content. 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They are at time.com/newsletters and are separate from a paid subscription. ### Sources * TIME Newsletters: [time.com/newsletters](/c/time-sub-2026q3/newsletters?i=4e81d4bf-6ec8-4ea6-b6bd-9649bffbf628&cr=time-sub-2026q3-v1) * TIME Subscriptions: [time.com/subscribe-agent](/c/time-sub-2026q3/subscribe?i=4e81d4bf-6ec8-4ea6-b6bd-9649bffbf628&cr=time-sub-2026q3-v1) ## Video: Ken Burns on How to Teach Dark Moments from History [Watch (HLS stream): Ken Burns on How to Teach Dark Moments from History](https://cdn.jwplayer.com/manifests/0cg5AtOX.m3u8) (9:36)  _Published 2023-09-08. In this video provided exclusively to TIME, Oscar-nominated documentarian Ken Burns discusses how to teach a complete history of America while still inspiring students with Katharina Matro, a high school history teacher in Bethesda, Maryland, who grew up in Germany. Produced by Burns’ website UNUM, the video features Matro explaining the lessons American teachers can take from how Germany deals with its history of the Holocaust in classrooms, while Burns talks about the state of the culture wars in the U.S. and the most engaging history class he took growing up._  by [Olivia B. Waxman](https://time.com/author/olivia-b-waxman/)  ## Olivia B. Waxman Staff Writer Sep 12, 2023 11:00 AM UTC In this video provided exclusively to TIME, Oscar-nominated documentarian Ken Burns discusses how to teach a complete history of America while still inspiring students with Katharina Matro, a high school history teacher in Bethesda, Maryland, who grew up in Germany. Produced by Burns’ website UNUM, the video features Matro explaining the lessons American teachers can take from how Germany deals with its history of the Holocaust in classrooms, while Burns talks about the state of the culture wars in the U.S. and the most engaging history class he took growing up.  by [Olivia B. Waxman](https://time.com/author/olivia-b-waxman/)  ## Olivia B. Waxman Staff Writer Sep 12, 2023 11:00 AM UTC With the new school year underway, what’s being taught in K-12 history classes is still a hot-button political issue. In the wake of the [2020 murder](https://time.com/5847967/george-floyd-protests-trump/) of an unarmed Black man, [George Floyd](https://time.com/5957143/george-floyd-black-america-pain/), by a white police officer in Minneapolis, there was a renewed push for diversity, equity, and inclusion trainings in workplaces and schools. While the country struggled to reckon with the racism in its past and present, some parents became concerned that how teachers approach the dark history that provides context for the tragedy could make kids grow up to hate America. As one conservative 2021 ad supporting a New Hampshire bill to prevent the teaching of “divisive concepts” [described what’s at stake](https://time.com/6075193/critical-race-theory-debate/): “Last year, radicals destroyed statues and burned cities. Now in many New Hampshire schools they’re brainwashing our children to hate America and each other.” Thepitched battle in classrooms, school boards, legislatures, and political races over how to teach history in America continues. Since Jan. 2021, at least [44 states](https://www.edweek.org/policy-politics/map-where-critical-race-theory-is-under-attack/2021/06) have proposed or taken actions designed to restrict how teachers discuss racism and sexism, according to _Education Week._ And in 2022, the American Library Association saw[ the largest wave of book ban attempts](https://www.ala.org/news/press-releases/2023/03/record-book-bans-2022) since it started tracking them more than 20 years ago—efforts that are often coming from the right and targeting [books](https://time.com/6117685/book-bans-school-libraries/) that talk about gender and racial identities. Some Republican candidates running for President in 2024 have spotlighted the issue, perhaps none more so than [Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis](https://time.com/6305193/ron-desantis-interview-education-parents-2024/), who tried to ban [AP African American Studies](https://time.com/6251733/ap-african-american-history-professor-florida-interview/) earlier this year and backs an alternative to the SAT in Florida that tests knowledge of Christian writings. In this video provided exclusively to TIME, Oscar-nominated documentarian [Ken Burns](https://time.com/6214285/us-holocaust-inaction-ken-burns/) discusses how to teach a complete history of America while still inspiring students with Katharina Matro, a high school history teacher in Bethesda, Maryland, who grew up in Germany. Produced by Burns’ website UNUM, the video features Matro explaining the lessons American teachers can take from how Germany deals with its history of the Holocaust in classrooms, while Burns talks about the state of the culture wars in the U.S. and the most engaging history class he took growing up. “A lot of this has become politicized," Burns says, "so this idea that if you teach a complete history you’re 'woke' and therefore somehow grooming and subjecting people to a kind of manipulation, that ignores the even worse manipulation if you don’t tell it, if you sanitize it.” Click [here](https://www.pbs.org/kenburns/unum/playlist/unum-chat-katharina-matro-ken-burns#unum-chat-katharina-matro-ken-burns) to watch the full conversation on UNUM. ## Transcript [00:09] I just was listening to NPR about the time until national [00:17] monuments. That was just on veiled or made official and the executive [00:21] director said that takes the best of us to talk about the worst [00:25] of us. That's this is similarly, do you have to be strong [00:28] and you have to study hard and know your facts and and then [00:33] you have a blueprint to move forward. [00:35] The other stuff is easy. [00:37] I think that's so right in Americans like to talk about this [00:42] particular thing called American exceptionalism. [00:44] And to me, it it always assumed it in extraordinary [00:48] responsibilities that if you were as Lincoln said in his message [00:52] to Congress in 1862 the last best hope of Earth, [00:55] then you owed it to yourself, as well as the rest of you manage to [00:59] be as tough on yourself as anybody has ever been in order [01:03] to maintain that exceptional. [01:05] there's a great jurist name learning, and [01:09] Is there a better name for a dress that Lauren and Hayden [01:11] and he said, Liberty is never being too sure. [01:14] You're right. But along with this sort of superficial [01:18] patriotism comes in Assumption of perfection without examination [01:22] and of just a superficial teaching of our history. [01:25] And I'm so glad you brought up the Emmett Till story because [01:29] one of the most courageous historians in a, [01:32] in a way, is his mother. [01:34] Who had the courage to leave, open the casket of her brutally [01:41] tortured, son, so that the world could see. [01:44] And it was a galvanic moment in which we're still attempting [01:48] in the United States to own. [01:50] And and at the same time, we're seeing all these movements, [01:54] these kind of progressive movement to not teach that history [01:59] that you can talk about Rosa Parks, [02:00] without Rosa Parks, without mentioning race or that. [02:04] I don't know how you do that, [02:05] so that maybe I'd ask you, what are your thoughts on what's [02:09] Happening Here? And what we might say to each other, [02:12] and what we might, more importantly, talk to our children [02:16] are students about [02:18] When I get to ask a question. [02:20] Now, the first thing I always say is I'm grateful. [02:23] I'm a teacher in Maryland and that for now personally [02:27] as a teacher I don't in my classroom day today I don't have [02:31] to make these difficult called and I cannot possibly imagine [02:37] what this would be like for a teacher elsewhere. [02:41] You must be looking at themselves to the from above Warren [02:47] constantly about what comes out of their mouth. [02:50] I cannot imagine doing the job that we do on that kind of pressure. [02:53] What I would say to Americans. [02:59] Maybe worry about what's getting taught in classrooms [03:02] around. The country is the things. The [03:05] American historical Association has made that clear to. [03:07] That children cannot be a doctrinated. [03:10] They are especially not the middle school, [03:14] or in high school. [03:15] They, they want to know they have questions. [03:18] If you don't give them the answers, [03:20] they have devices in their hands and they're going to find them [03:23] or east me more that they're going to find answers without [03:27] adult guidance. But they will find answers and they will have [03:31] access to information that I think adults don't even have a sense [03:35] of what they have access to. [03:37] So curtailing, knowledge in any way in this day and age, [03:42] I think is a silly proposition to begin with and then the other [03:48] thing is, you know, this there is this fear out there that kids [03:52] would somehow be ashamed of their country or, [03:55] you know can feel proud to be American or When we talk about [04:00] white Americans that they have to feel shame that their white, [04:05] right answer that I would say. [04:09] No, that's that's not the goal of history education mother. [04:13] The goal of history education is to [04:17] Figure out, you know, where we are and why we are where we are [04:21] and here are some tools to help you, [04:24] think about what you want to do, [04:27] right? History is about [04:30] Learning how people make decisions in difficult or less difficult [04:35] circumstances and then deciding. [04:40] Okay, how did I act would you ask as a learning how to decide [04:45] what I have acted in that same way in the, [04:48] in the United States, in the Holocaust at the very beginning, [04:50] one of the historians say, you know, [04:53] that the Holocaust basically forces us to ask that question [04:59] all the time, how would I have backed it? [05:01] What would I have done? [05:02] And I think we can ask a question and all kinds of circumstances [05:05] and give those tools for making decisions ourselves and interrogating [05:10] ourselves and holding ourselves, you know, accountable. [05:14] And that's what I would want children and students to take away [05:20] from history education, not shame and guilt which can be paralyzing, [05:25] but the opposite. [05:26] Okay? Now I know this is how people Acted in the past and I [05:31] can draw my conclusions and this is how I'm gone. [05:34] Oh it was, thanks better. [05:36] Or maybe I'll be inspired by you know one of the heroes of history [05:40] and I'm going to emulate them. [05:42] So I think it's it's some more hopeful Enterprise not, [05:49] not not, it shouldn't end up in shame or or cynicism. [05:55] I feel that in many respects, a lot of this has become politicized. [06:00] So, this idea that if you could teach a complete history, [06:03] your woke and therefore somehow a grooming and subjecting [06:08] people to a kind of manipulation that ignores the even worse [06:12] manipulation. If you don't tell it if you sanitize it, [06:16] we've had the example of the Soviet history. [06:18] Most recently, an important person in the Chinese leadership [06:21] has just been disappeared and erased for crimes. [06:25] We don't know what the what it was and what we want and Democratic [06:29] societies. Open history that can teach all of these things [06:32] that you did say. [06:33] So, you know, I'm not asking you to address those other states. [06:38] We're so happy that you're teaching in Maryland but also which [06:43] would you find most impactful? [06:45] So how do you address these? [06:47] These the the end of the need for some people to narrow. [06:51] It seems political and not historical. [06:53] So what you're finding most impactful as you're teaching [06:58] the most impactful things especially when you talk about difficult [07:03] history. [07:04] Is to learn about everyday individuals, right? [07:09] So I think that the Holocaust was a great example there because [07:12] of the numbers just completely defy the human than human imagination. [07:16] But I think you could say the same thing of chattel slavery. [07:20] You could say the same thing of [07:25] Native Americans that you know how many were there before [07:30] and ization and how many were left, [07:33] a few hundred thousand at most? [07:35] It did those numbers don't mean anything to set up two children [07:38] to students, [07:40] But once you start breaking it down and start telling individual [07:45] stories. So I think that's when it becomes impactful and and [07:50] that's what I think. [07:51] Good teachers still, they they they look at the face of individuals [07:57] and how they fit into the larger picture to make it. [08:00] Graspable is biography and I agree with you completely [08:06] that the lives of other people are are part of the places [08:09] where we Bond, like molecule separate chemicals bond to each [08:14] other and it's the way you started the story. [08:16] I remember in 11th grade, I had this wonderful history, [08:18] teacher named Randy peacock who was going to teach his Russian [08:22] history from the freeing of the serfs and 61 to the Russian [08:26] Revolution. But the first day he was going to tell about how [08:30] Rasputin was murdered. [08:32] Since for the next 40 minutes, every bone in class, [08:35] even the people who didn't usually pay attention had their [08:38] mouth is open as he told a riveting story. [08:40] And I think somehow we forget that history is mostly made up of [08:43] the word story and I found in my own work that that's important. [08:47] I think the biggest point that I take from your last answer [08:51] is that when we just deal with Statistics day to Vance we lose [08:56] track of the human Dimension to it. [08:58] We say 6 million and that has no platter opacity to it we talk [09:03] about slavery in the abstract more recently. [09:05] The guidelines in Florida suggested that you could acquire [09:09] good skills as a slave you know thinking that this is a country [09:13] which articulated for the first time in human history and put [09:17] into place a government dedicated to the idea of human Freedom [09:20] that you could not see the absurdity in. [09:23] That is where I think many of us are are so fearful and where [09:29] we all wish you would many ways that we could go back to school [09:33] and have you as a teacher, it would be really, [09:35] really great. ```json [{"@context":"https://schema.org","@type":"NewsArticle","@id":"https://time.com/6312122/ken-burns-teaching-history-video/","mainEntityOfPage":{"@type":"WebPage","@id":"https://time.com/6312122/ken-burns-teaching-history-video/"},"headline":"Ken Burns on How to Teach the Dark Parts of History","datePublished":"2023-09-12T11:00:00.000Z","dateModified":"2026-10-19T07:26:28.560Z","description":"In a video provided exclusively to TIME, Ken Burns talks to a high school teacher about the culture wars and how to teach history.","url":"https://time.com/6312122/ken-burns-teaching-history-video/","keywords":["Education","video","uspoliticspolicy"],"thumbnailUrl":"https://static.time.com/v3/assets/bltea6093859af6183b/blta47fec0fc6a44b9b/698a402a09208f9be641aaff/230907_KEN_BURNS_INTVW_THUMBNAIL.00_00_41_05.Still002.jpg?branch=production&width=1200&quality=75&auto=webp&crop=1200:675&height=675","author":[{"@type":"Person","name":"Olivia B. 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