The World: Morarji Desai: The Ascetic Activist

Despite the austerity of his lifestyle, Prime Minister Desai is not one of the sadhu—Indian holy men who believe that it is enough to be and not to do. A shrewd political activist, he argues that “things should be done for their own sake. I accept that I will never understand reality, so I concentrate on action, dharma [duty] and commitment.” Last week, at his government bungalow in New Delhi, he outlined his views of India’s future in an interview with TIME Correspondents Lawrence Malkin and William Stewart. Excerpts:

ON THE ELECTION RESULTS. I feel more humble than before, because it is a tremendous task which has to be fulfilled and it is only God who can enable us to fulfill it. What has taken place must convince the world that democracy is basic to the culture of this country. It was always thought that democracy was foreign to us and given only by the Britishers. That is wrong; we had democracy in this country before Greece. It is so ingrained that it asserts itself in time of crisis and it has asserted itself now. The peaceful reaction that you are now seeing after this tremendous victory—for that I am very happy.

ON HUMAN RIGHTS. Fundamental rights should never be touched, whether there is an emergency or not. They must be maintained as stated under the constitution. But we want to remove property rights [from the constitution]. When property rights are mixed up with personal liberty and freedom of speech, there is a temptation for government to attack fundamental rights in the name of property rights. We will remove the property right from the fundamental rights, but we will make it a legal right, assessable and judged by the courts. We don’t want to carry out land reform in a dictatorial manner. Why should it not see the scrutiny of the courts?

ON BIRTH CONTROL. I don’t think it is easy to educate people into self-control. Population control is vital today because we are poor. Now it can be done only by artificial means by the common people. Therefore, we must give them those means, but they must be voluntary and not compulsory. [Mrs. Gandhi] paid the price only because of this—old men have been vasectomized, unmarried people have been vasectomized, young boys have been vasectomized. [The election result] is a revolt against all that. We would not have won otherwise. I agree with incentives because I believe both in the carrot and the rod. But the rod must be very rare, and the carrot must also not make people greedy. It must only be an incentive.

ON POLITICAL WOMEN. I have been the greatest champion of women and have put more women in the legislatures than anyone else. But I have changed my views after the experience of history and three women Prime Ministers—Sri Lanka, India and Israel. And [Mrs.] Thatcher will be the same if she becomes Prime Minister of Britain—let me tell you that! You see, women on the whole have better, softer qualities than men, and on the whole they don’t go as devilish as men. But when a woman becomes devilish, she beats all records. No man can equal her. Now I can’t say that she [Mrs. Gandhi] is all devil and nothing good. That would be wrong. But the good is suppressed and the devil on top. If you ask me what she accomplished in ten years [as Prime Minister], I don’t know. I will have to think about it. She always said she has never hurt anybody, but she has a dictatorial temperament. Her father was a democrat in his bones and blood and marrow: he could never have done anything like that. He believed in Machiavelli—that was his ideal. Mine is Gandhi—and Lincoln.

ON GANDHI TODAY. All of you people think that Gandhian ideology is against machines. That is wrong. Gandhi did not want to leave the modern world. He was a realistic person, a man whose feet were on the earth, not in the skies. He would not have discarded railways [or] electricity. Yes, he would say all these things have brought us difficulties with too much prosperity. But can I therefore say you shouldn’t be prosperous? What he said was that you must not become the slave of the machine. You are all discovering this everywhere, and that is why Gandhi has become more popular today even in the West. But Gandhian philosophy can be understood by you only when we make it good here. This is the only soil where it can prosper. If it prospers here, then I am sure the world will adopt it, for the world is sick of the other things today. Too much prosperity will always lead to catastrophe.

ON INDIA’S ATOMIC REACTORS. We will keep them, but they will never be used for atomic bombs, and I will see to it if I can help it. What must be done is to have the atomic bomb disappear from the world. The scientists who first of all showed us the use of this bomb were the greatest enemies of man. The discovery is all right, but to put it to that use . . . the poisons will always be there.

ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS. Our relations will be the same with all. We will have no special relations with one country. If Russia objects to that, it is free to remove [the Soviet Treaty of Peace, Friendship and Cooperation]. We look forward to better relations with all countries, and certainly with our neighbors such as Pakistan, not by pampering them, but by equality. We have no intention of annoying our neighbors, and we will try to avoid hurting their feelings, but we will not do anything at the point of a gun or blackmail.

ON THE ROLE OF GOVERNMENT. Ultimately, in a democracy all must work together. The Prime Minister will have to be the guiding factor . . . Human society must be human, not a mixture of animals, and we are 90% animals today, which is not a very pleasant thought but it is a fact. Passions belong only to animals, and if human material is superior, then we have to control passions, which should be used for proper purposes, just as steam has to be utilized for energy, not for scalding people. Government will have to set an example in its own actions. You see, to make people fearless is more a function of government than of anything else, because people are afraid of government more than any other agency. And you have to set them at rest that no honest man will ever have to suffer under that government. On the contrary, honest men will be supported and respected. Then you will create more honest men.