INSIDE SADDAM’S BRUTAL REGIME

The flight of Hussein Kamel al-Majid to Jordan last month, along with several relatives, revealed a shocking rift in Iraq’s ruling clan. Hussein Kamel is Saddam Hussein’s cousin and son-in-law. A true hard-liner, he oversaw Iraq’s program to develop weapons of mass destruction and, as he indirectly admits below, was responsible for brutal repression of Shi’ites and Kurds after the Gulf War. In his first major interview with a Western journalist, Hussein Kamel talked to diplomatic correspondent Dean Fischer in Amman. On one matter he was almost certainly dissembling: though he denies it, authoritative sources say he has met with CIA officials since his defection.

TIME: Why did you decide to defect? Hussein Kamel: I was motivated by the interests of the country. I reached the point where I found [criticizing erroneous policies] to be futile. For the past 15 years Iraq has not stopped fighting. It has ended up accumulating debts that will require generations and generations to repay. There are too many executions in our society, too many arrests. Whatever the age of the critic–whether 80 or 15–many people are executed. For these reasons I left.

TIME: How did you manage to leave Baghdad without arousing suspicion?

Hussein Kamel: We left Baghdad at around 8 p.m. on Aug. 7. We said we planned to attend a conference in Bulgaria [and would travel there via Amman], so it was an official motorcade with security. When I arrived at the Iraqi border crossing, they never even asked me for my passport. We arrived in Amman at 3:30 in the morning of Aug. 8. I don’t know Amman very well because on previous trips all our arrangements were taken care of by Jordanian protocol. It was rather difficult to reach a hotel. We found a taxi, and I asked somebody from our security detail to get into the taxi and take us to a hotel.

TIME: There have been reports of a shooting in Baghdad involving President Saddam’s eldest son Uday [seemingly second in power these days] and Saddam’s half brother Watban Ibrahim al-Tikriti.

Hussein Kamel: There was a shooting on the same night we left Baghdad to go to Amman. According to information I have verified, there was a fistfight between Saddam’s brother-in-law Luay Talfah and Watban’s nephew Nemir Diham. Subsequently Luay told Uday, who was at another party. Uday rushed in and started firing indiscriminately. The host was shot, and also Watban, and two members of the President’s security detail. Some Gypsy dancers and other guests were shot. Eight women were killed or wounded. Uday is well known for such behavior. It was late at night, and alcohol had affected him. Such incidents have taken place in the past, and nobody held him accountable.

TIME: There was an earlier incident involving the beating to death of a servant.

Hussein Kamel: On that occasion Uday was also drunk. President Saddam’s valet was seated close to Uday at a party. The valet got into an argument with one of Uday’s security guards. Uday hit the valet with a club, and the man died.

TIME: Is it true that the President has cracked down on Uday?

Hussein Kamel: No. Uday is still active.

TIME: Can anybody in Iraq dissent from the regime’s policies without fear of imprisonment, or torture or death?

Hussein Kamel: If there is a conversation between two people in which one of them criticizes any subject related to the regime, the fate of both of them is execution. Anybody who criticizes the regime, even in the slightest way, faces execution.

TIME: Did other members of the government ever criticize the regime?

Hussein Kamel: It never happened. TIME: You have been described as unfit for power by Barzan Ibrahim al-Tikriti, President Saddam’s half brother. What was your relationship with him?

Hussein Kamel: Barzan is the kind of person who does not attach value to anybody. He was very harmful to the Iraqi people–imprisonments, torture, executions.

TIME: Were you responsible for putting down the postwar rebellions of the Shi’ites and Kurds?

Hussein Kamel: After the war ended, a civil war broke out. Huge massacres took place in many towns and cities. I took office as Minister of Defense right after the revolts were put down. But the Ministry of Defense was not in charge of putting down these revolts. It was some small units [of the Republican Guard] that took responsibility across the country.

TIME: Did you have anything to do with the suppression of those revolts?

Hussein Kamel: I was in charge of the Republican Guard.

TIME: What is your response to charges that you embezzled money?

Hussein Kamel: Yes, it has been said that Hussein Kamel was in charge of the economy of Iraq from 1985 to 1995–70% of the economy of Iraq. It has been said that Hussein Kamel has amassed a great fortune outside Iraq. If anybody proves I have any money outside Iraq, I am ready to give him this money. TIME: Since your defection, Iraq has provided new information to the U.N. on its nuclear, chemical and biological weapons programs. Have all the secrets been disclosed?

Hussein Kamel: They have given information, but I don’t know if [the U.N.] has managed to verify it all. It is a huge amount of information. It will take a long time.

TIME: Why didn’t you use these weapons during the Gulf War?

Hussein Kamel: How can you use them while you are fighting the whole planet? Any mistake of using these unconventional weapons will make the major powers use nuclear weapons, which means Iraq will be exterminated.

TIME: What would have happened if the U.S. Army had entered Baghdad?

Hussein Kamel: We concluded that the possibility was remote. All the Iraqis were sure that no armies would enter the city. War in the cities is very different from war outside. Firing missiles from a distance and aerial bombardment usually result in fewer casualties for the attackers. But the minute you enter a city, a schoolchild 12 years old becomes a fighter. Or even a 70-year-old.

TIME: Have you met with any American officials?

Hussein Kamel: No, until now I haven’t met any Americans, but I certainly will not prevent myself from doing so.

TIME: What is it you would like to see for the future of Iraq?

Hussein Kamel: Iraq should be a stable, secure country, able to interact with the Arab countries and the West. Iraq should avoid wars. There should be pluralism and political parties. We should put an end to these shameful executions.

TIME: In order for that to happen, doesn’t it require an overthrow of the regime?

Hussein Kamel: Yes, of course. The Iraqi opposition is now in place to overthrow the regime. I am talking now about the opposition inside the country. I know everything about it, all the details–Iraqi army officers, government of ficials, university professors and all the graduates, and also the Iraqi citizenry.

TIME: But doesn’t it require leadership by the army?

Hussein Kamel: This is true. The catalyst will be for the people to join the army in taking the initiative. All the Iraqi people are armed. Everybody is now ready. But there are things that must be done before the first spark is ignited.

TIME: Do you think you are a target of assassination?

Hussein Kamel: I know the regime in Iraq. I knew even before my departure that they would be ready to set aside the entire Iraqi budget to eliminate Hussein Kamel.