An Interview with Yitzhak Shamir

“In this part of the world, Jews and Arabs mil live together forever”

Since he became Prime Minister of Israel five months ago, Yitzhak Shamir has struggled with the problems left behind by his predecessor, Menachem Begin. In the process, his confidence has grown and he has proved to be a smooth, pragmatic leader. Shamir has cut government spending to try to cool off Israel’s dangerously fevered economy. He has withdrawn Israel’s occupation force in western Lebanon to the Awali River. Most important, he has mended his country’s severely strained ties with the U.S. Now Shamir faces another test: early elections and a campaign that will undoubtedly be as fierce as any in Israel’s history. The Prime Minister had just ended a hectic meeting on fixing the election date (July 23) when he received Time Inc. Editor in Chief Henry Grunwald, TIME Managing Editor Ray Cave and Chief of Correspondents Richard Duncan in his comfortable but modest Jerusalem office. Though he looked weary, Shamir, 68, seemed relaxed and in good humor as he responded in English to his visitors’ questions. Excerpts from the interview:

Q. Do you expect to win the elections?

A. Of course. Our weakness is our system of coalitions, with its small parties. Whoever wins needs the support of the small groups, and these groups do not have national responsibility. In some cases, one or two votes can have a tremendous effect on the fate of the government. We have to change this system.

Q. What will the main issues be?

A. The economy will be one of the most important issues. But we will have other issues: Lebanon, relations with our neighbors, the so-called territories of Samaria and Judea [the West Bank], and Gaza. In all the campaigns in the past we had to face the same issues, except Lebanon.

Q. What are the conditions under which you would withdraw troops from Lebanon?

A. We have one condition: sufficient security arrangements on our northern frontier. It will be possible if we can find grounds for cooperation with Lebanese factions on the spot.

Q. Five years after Camp David, how do you assess the region generally?

A. The explosion of King Hussein [who bitterly attacked U.S. policy three weeks ago] was a bit surprising. After all, we have always expressed our readiness to talk with him openly or, if he prefers, not openly. We believe that we have many common interests and that it is high time to discuss them. Nobody can guarantee that discussions will be fruitful in the first phases, but we have to start. Besides the territorial issues, which are very complicated from the point of view of King Hussein, there are many other common issues needing agreed-upon solutions. Many economic issues. We have the same resources of water. In this part of the world water is very precious, very important. We have a common issue in the Dead Sea, which is one of the greatest treasures of our country and of Jordan. We share problems of security. As you begin to discuss these questions and to find solutions, you get a better climate for solving the more thorny issues.

Q. When you speak of the thornier issues, we assume that you refer to the ultimate disposition of what we call the West Bank. Don’t you feel that your settlement policy makes a better climate more difficult?

A. I don’t think the establishment of some centers of population in the areas of Samaria and Judea has to do with the climate of relations between us. After all, in the Camp David accords we obliged ourselves to negotiate about the political future of these territories. We have never promised not to live there, not to settle there. In this part of the world, in this country, Jews and Arabs will live together forever, and the question is: What will be the political expression of this reality?

Q. Is there not a point, however, where possession of the best land becomes a political reality and affects the politics of the region?

A. It’s not the best land. As a matter of fact, where we are establishing our centers of population is on rocky lands, on lands on which nobody lives now and nobody lived for centuries. We are not taking any land from anybody. Nothing.

Q. King Hussein said that he was, by his remarks, taking his case to the American people. Are you concerned that he can make any progress with that approach?

A. The U.S. is an open country, and we are taking our case to Americans every day.

Q. Several issues concerning Israel seem to be becoming part of the American scene. Are you entirely comfortable with that?

A. It’s part of the reality. We know there is great interest in the U.S. in this part of the world. The U.S. sometimes has to decide about problems related to foreign countries. It’s normal for a world power. Any Israeli is interested in and is identified with good relations with the U.S., not only because of our interest in having such relations, but because we feel we are close to the U.S. mentality, philosophy and human approach.

Q. Could you comment on the proposal to move the U.S. embassy to Jerusalem?

A. I think 100% of Israel is for having the Israeli capital in Jerusalem. Putting the U.S. embassy in Jerusalem is an expression of the recognition of this. Our capital, since 1949, has been Jerusalem. Our government is here, our parliament is here, and the embassies are in Tel Aviv. I can’t understand it. If there are some differences about the eastern part of Jerusalem, then why not establish the embassy in the western part?

Q. What do you think will happen in the Iran-Iraq war?

A. It’s a crazy war. It will come to an end when the two parties reach such a degree of exhaustion that they will stop it.

Q. It has been alleged that Israel has shipped arms to Iran. Is that continuing at all?

A. I don’t know about such shipments.