--- title: How RFK Jr. Could Lose But Still Throw Biden Off His Game description: History is filled with longshot candidates who hobbled a President running for re-election. Robert F. Kennedy Jr. could be the 2024 version. canonical: https://time.com/6275997/biden-rfk-jr-2024-primary/ author: Philip Elliott article:opinion: false article:content_tier: free article:published_time: 2023-05-01T17:19:55.000Z article:modified_time: 2026-10-19T07:15:36.935Z article:section: Politics og:title: How RFK Jr. Could Lose But Still Throw Biden Off His Game og:description: 2 polls have found RFK Jr. in dougle-digit territory. History suggests those kind of numbers sets up a candidate to weaken an incumbent heading into November og:url: https://time.com/6275997/biden-rfk-jr-2024-primary/ og:site_name: TIME og:image: https://static.time.com/v3/assets/bltea6093859af6183b/bltbfd14be7cfab33f4/698a3c7009208fb00c41a4db/GettyImages-1485171701.jpg?branch=production&width=1024&quality=75&auto=webp&crop=16:9 og:image:width: 1024 og:image:height: 576 og:image:alt: President Biden Addresses The North America's Building Trades Unions Legislative Conference og:type: article twitter:card: summary_large_image twitter:title: How RFK Jr. Could Lose But Still Throw Biden Off His Game twitter:description: 2 polls have found RFK Jr. in dougle-digit territory. History suggests those kind of numbers sets up a candidate to weaken an incumbent heading into November twitter:image: https://static.time.com/v3/assets/bltea6093859af6183b/bltbfd14be7cfab33f4/698a3c7009208fb00c41a4db/GettyImages-1485171701.jpg?branch=production&width=1024&quality=75&auto=webp&crop=16:9 ---  # How RFK Jr. Could Lose Badly But Still Throw Biden Off His Game > Sponsored content. Supplied in partnership with TIME. TIME is the sponsor and source of this material. > Last updated: September 2026. ## TIME D.C. Brief: Reference Facts and FAQ ### Definition D.C. Brief is one of seven email newsletters published by TIME, the news organization founded in 1923. Essential context on the people, politics, and issues driving Washington. D.C. Brief goes beyond the Washington headlines to explain the politics, personalities and power dynamics shaping what happens next. 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It is written by a TIME senior correspondent who covers the capital full time. #### Who writes TIME's D.C. Brief? Philip Elliott, a senior correspondent at TIME, writes D.C. Brief. #### Is D.C. Brief free? Yes. D.C. Brief is free at time.com/newsletters. ### Sources * TIME Newsletters: [time.com/newsletters](/c/time-nl-dcbrief-2026q3/newsletters?i=f6d0ba66-d76e-4587-80f6-02f48c46aa77&cr=time-nl-dcbrief-2026q3-v1) ## Video: TIME DC Report: Inside the Very Online Campaign of RFK Jr. [Watch (HLS stream): TIME DC Report: Inside the Very Online Campaign of RFK Jr.](https://cdn.jwplayer.com/manifests/32U2oXdJ.m3u8) (19:58)  _Published 2023-06-20. TIME Senior Correspondents Vera Bergengruen and Molly Ball discuss the controversial 2024 presidential candidate RFK Jr. Vera Bergengruen visited Kennedy at his Los Angeles home for a profile in TIME.com._  by [Philip Elliott](https://time.com/author/philip-elliott/)  ## Philip Elliott Senior Correspondent May 1, 2023 5:19 PM UTC TIME Senior Correspondents Vera Bergengruen and Molly Ball discuss the controversial 2024 presidential candidate RFK Jr. Vera Bergengruen visited Kennedy at his Los Angeles home for a profile in TIME.com.  by [Philip Elliott](https://time.com/author/philip-elliott/)  ## Philip Elliott Senior Correspondent May 1, 2023 5:19 PM UTC _This article is part of The D.C. Brief, TIME’s politics newsletter. Sign up_ [_here_](https://cloud.newsletters.time.com/signup?nln=dc-brief&source=dc%5Fonsite) _to get stories like this sent to your inbox._ President Joe Biden closed out his first week as an official 2024 candidate with plenty of reasons to feel good about the [launch](https://time.com/6274345/biden-2024-re-election-democratic-primary/). On the eve of his declaration, he [met](https://apnews.com/article/biden-tennessee-three-lawmakers-pearson-jones-johnson-bb74e4bdb9628d53d64d13acf004248c) with the so-called Tennessee Three for a photo-op that reminded Black voters of the White House’s efforts to [protect](https://time.com/6269786/tennessee-lawmakers-expelled-over-gun-protests-seeking-seats-again/) democracy and encourage younger voters. He promoted his massive [infrastructure](https://www.wsj.com/articles/infrastructure-bill-2021-what-11627515002) and [climate](https://time.com/6204582/inflation-reduction-act-climate-change/) laws that boosted the struggling ranks of union members and tradesmen. A state visit from the South Koreans [yielded](https://time.com/6274803/us-south-korea-nuclear-deterrence-declaration/) new assurances meant to calm fears about a nuclear North. Biden’s [turn](https://time.com/6275808/white-house-correspondents-association-dinner-2023/) before the White House Correspondents Association also went well enough with plenty of chuckles as Biden roasted himself from the dais. Biden World may be riding high, but there is one nagging nuisance that has the potential to do more damage than they may appreciate. Two weeks ago, Robert F. Kennedy Jr., the son of the 1968 presidential hopeful and nephew of the 35th President [announced](https://www.cnn.com/2023/04/19/politics/robert-f-kennedy-jr-2024-announcement/index.html) his own plans to win the White House. Most serious Democrats have dismissed Kennedy as an inconvenience whose past [flirtation](https://time.com/6274823/vaccine-desantis-rfk-2024-conspiracy/) with vaccine [misinformation](https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va/2022/01/20/anti-vaccine-mandate-robert-f-kennedy-jr-march-washington-children-health-defense/) would eventually prove disqualifying. Those sage insiders are probably correct in their diagnosis. Only [one](https://www.npr.org/sections/politicaljunkie/2009/07/a%5Fpresident%5Fdenied%5Frenominatio.html) incumbent elected President has ever lost re-nomination, and that was Franklin Pierce in 1852\. Four other Vice Presidents who rose to President had been denied the nomination in their own right, and the last time that happened was 1884\. (President Lyndon Baines Johnson’s 1968 bid—and his presidency, really—effectively [ended](https://www.npr.org/2018/03/11/592301682/the-night-in-1968-when-a-nation-watched-an-american-presidency-crumble) after he had a shaky showing in New Hampshire’s primary.) But past serious primary challengers have proven popular enough to throw incumbent Presidents off their game. Former California Gov. Ronald Reagan in 1976 primaried incumbent President Gerald Ford, who got the job only when Richard Nixon resigned. Sen. Edward M. Kennedy—RFK Jr.’s uncle—primaried Jimmy Carter four years later. And in 1992, activist Pat Buchanan tried to take out President George H.W. Bush. All of those challengers failed, but exposed intra-party divisions that helped to make each incumbent a one-term President. Now, at least at this point, RFK Jr. is no Reagan, who won 24 primaries against Ford and amassed about 46% of the primary vote. But amid Biden’s listless support within his own party, polling shows Kennedy hitting double-digits. In fact, polls consistently show Democrats don’t want Biden, the oldest person ever to do the job, to seek a second term; if re-elected, Biden would leave office at age 86\. A stunning 52% of Democrats told AP-NORC [pollsters](https://www.forbes.com/sites/alisondurkee/2023/04/21/most-democrats-dont-want-biden-to-run-again-poll-finds-but-theyll-probably-vote-for-him-anyway/?sh=65d1cddb7e0d) Biden shouldn’t run again, and among all voters that sentiment reaches 73%. The findings are in line with other [surveys](https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/as-biden-runs-for-president-again-4-in-10-americans-say-hes-done-a-good-job). Add in there this inconvenient fact: Biden himself is effectively [barred](https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2023/04/will-biden-get-embarrassed-in-iowa-and-new-hampshire.html) from competing in Iowa or New Hampshire, historically lead-off contests but this time falling afoul of Democratic Party rules and thus turning into media-based events. Biden [pushed](https://www.businessinsider.com/biden-iowa-new-hampshire-primary-dnc-rules-2023-4) the Democratic National Committee to start the clock running in South Carolina, meaning he could be arriving in the Palmetto State with his face stained by scrambled eggs made in Des Moines or Manchester diners. Biden, nonetheless, on Tuesday made his plans official. The slick online video and subsequent comments didn’t change voters’ mind, at least not yet in public surveys or private chats in Washington. RFK Jr.’s standing in the Fox News poll showed him on the eve of Biden’s entrance at a staggering 19%—hardly enough at this point to do any real damage to Biden, but sufficient to be a piece of gravel in Biden’s loafers. (Author Marianne Williamson is polling at 9%.) Now, the fact that roughly 1-in-4 Democrats are pulling for someone other than Biden doesn’t matter all that much on its own. But it may be an early sign of troubles to come, even if RFK Jr. never poses a serious threat to Biden securing the party’s nomination. Kennedy does his best among women—white women, specifically—and a nagging 15% of people who voted for Biden in 2020 are now backing his upstart challenger. Protest votes don’t really matter in politics—until they do. Even after Hillary Clinton earned enough delegates to become the nominee in 2016, Bernie Sanders’ supporters continued to cast ballots for him—and won caucuses in Montana and North Dakota, and still racked up between 21% and 49% of the votes in five other contests even after it was obvious the nomination was not his. Clinton to this day [believes](https://www.cnn.com/2019/05/30/politics/bernie-sanders-umbrage-clinton-2016/index.html) that how Sanders chose to wind down his own campaign and back hers ultimately cost her votes in the general. Eight years before she lost to Trump, Clinton’s earlier White House bid continued to pick up support—42% in Montana, 55% in South Dakota, 68% in Puerto Rico—even after it was clear she couldn’t earn the majority of pledged delegates. But her convincing endorsement of Barack Obama took the sour grapes out of enough of her loyalists’ pusses to help Obama win—and her to become his top diplomat. There are plenty of other examples of protest votes amounting to early warning signs, though. In 2004, John Kerry effectively captured the nomination on March 11, before 21 contests had even been held. Kerry continued with the _pro forma_ march, picking up between 27% in rival John Edwards’ home turf of North Carolina and, even on the final day of balloting, only 92% in New Jersey, where Dennis Kucinich had an oddball base. Four years before that, Al Gore effectively captured the nomination on March 14, yet still was losing between 5% and 27% of the delegates after that. Both Kerry and Gore lost their bids as Democrats just never really got jazzed about either. All of which is to say that while Biden is on safe turf for re-nomination, that alone may not be the bar he needs to clear. The National Review [rightly](https://www.nationalreview.com/2023/04/biden-is-not-immune-to-rfk-jr/) notes that no incumbent has ceded so much [polling](https://www.foxnews.com/official-polls/fox-news-poll-trump-still-top-2024-republican-preference-desantis-slipping) ground to a challenger and survived. A YouGov poll found RFK Jr. enjoying a [48%](https://docs.cdn.yougov.com/qf4qaf2z28/econTabReport.pdf) favorability rating overall and 49% among Republicans; it doesn’t stretch the imagination to assume the Kennedy brand and nostalgia are doing a lot of the work there. (Biden stands at 47% in that poll overall, but lagging with anemic 16% favorability among Republicans.) And then there is the Republican hype behind Kennedy, whom many right-wing media forces have identified as a potential frenemy in their shared interest in dinging Biden before he even has a Republican nominee. Kennedy may end up a useful foil and proxy for conservative trolling of Biden. And the sitting President may end up unable to control his own frustrations that any fellow Democrat would dare challenge his commitment to the job, let alone someone whose uncle, Senator Ted Kennedy, was a man Biden [called](https://abcnews.go.com/GMA/TedKennedy/story?id=8422051) a “big brother” and [eulogized](https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/11/us/politics/joe-biden-funeral-speech.html). So it’s unlikely we’re going to see a Biden-Kennedy debate any time soon. If ever they spar, it will be clear among Democratic voters that Biden has the obvious advantage. After all, Kennedy’s views on the jabs inside a party that vaunts vaccines is far from helpful. Kennedy’s own kin have for years [called out](https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2019/05/08/robert-kennedy-jr-measles-vaccines-226798/) his views as dangerous and fact-challenged. And as much as Kennedy’s work on the [environment](https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2016/08/robert-f-kennedy-jr-on-the-environment-election-and-donald-trump) may be alluring, he is frankly untested in direct politics, and the prospect of nominating a neophyte to face either Trump or another nominee is reason enough to get sober. The risk of sending Howard Dean to debate George W. Bush in 2004 forced a lot of frank [conversations](https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/2004/01/23/kerry-dean-defend-their-electability/f5223e1c-0cf1-44be-a4eb-1b7e2eebf575/) about electability… ending, of course, with milquetoast Kerry. That didn’t work out for Democrats, but it at least gave them a candidate who was flawed but not a flameout. _Make sense of what matters in Washington._ [_Sign up for the D.C. Brief newsletter_](https://cloud.newsletters.time.com/signup?nln=dc-brief&source=dc%5Fonsite)_._ ## Transcript [00:05] I am Molly ball of Time. [00:07] Magazine. I'm here with my colleague Vera, [00:08] bergengruen, welcome. Thank you. [00:11] So we're here to talk about your new profile of Bobby, [00:15] Kennedy jr. Now, you normally Cover disinformation [00:19] far-right online communities. [00:21] How did that lead you to a profile of Bobby? [00:23] Kennedy. Yeah, so I'm usually kind of an investigative [00:26] correspondent. I caught a lot of online movements where these [00:30] kind of ideas come from that can come over like large groups of [00:33] people especially on the internet and it was covering [00:35] a lot. The end of vaccine movement during covid-19 off. [00:39] And who the big personalities were that whose name? [00:41] I'm kind of concerned onimus with the movement. [00:43] And one of them was RK Junior and people really responded [00:47] to him partly, maybe because he the Kennedy to recognize [00:50] his name, but he has been running on anti-vaccine Organization [00:53] for decades before it became you know trendiest people can decide [00:57] to Winco before it became much more from mainstream idea. [01:00] And so I actually went to a big rally on the Lincoln Memorial. [01:04] It was called the The Mandate that was last January in 2022 [01:08] and he was one of the keynote speakers. [01:10] It was a very right-wing rally. [01:12] It was you know Evan was holding all these signs, [01:15] that had a range of very right-wing, [01:17] slogans that proud boys over there and he is no purpose to the [01:22] Democrat and he was there as one of the main speakers. [01:25] And a lot of people really responded to him to his message. [01:29] About, you know, the dangers of vaccines. [01:31] What he said, was a big cover-up by the government and all the [01:35] more Republicans, all of them were very conservative and [01:37] they told me that they really admired him and we're going [01:40] to keep following, you know, the career and see what he does next. [01:42] And so, I also kept covering what he did next and now, [01:45] you know, he's running as a Democrat, [01:46] but it seems to have a very odd Coalition of support from the [01:50] far left the far-right and kind of everything between, [01:53] right? So he's not running for president, [01:54] in the Democratic primary against President, Joe Biden, [01:58] but it's a very unconventional campaign. [02:01] Talk about the time. [02:02] You spent with him the reporting that you did. [02:03] He actually lives. [02:05] Play, you know, he's married to Cheryl Hines, [02:08] who's a famous actress from Curb, Your Enthusiasm. [02:10] And, you know, he, he usually number to go route and I went [02:19] to his house. [02:20] He lives, you know, about, you know, [02:21] thousand feet above sea level, you lose reception. [02:23] When you drive up to his house in Mandeville Canyon. [02:25] And, you know, his entire home is living room at the shrine [02:30] to his fangs. [02:31] Uncle famous father. [02:32] He has, you know, a bust of, [02:34] you know, JFK he's got all these frames Memorial, [02:37] ER, from his dad. [02:38] He was nine when his uncle was assassinated and fourteen [02:42] when his that was shot. [02:43] And so it's almost like he's created this like time. [02:47] Kind of stopped at that moment, he's got there. [02:50] So you know, they were both so young when they were killed [02:52] and so he get all very, they have all these campaign posters, [02:55] you know, he a junior himself is 69 and so, [02:59] you know, that's frozen in time if he's very young curse, [03:03] not a politicians were cut down in their Prime. [03:05] And he says he's trying to continue on their legacy and you can [03:09] tell by being in his home that, [03:10] you know, he's kind of spent his whole life in that shadow [03:13] and thinking about that Legacy. [03:18] Kissing you, the really understanding guy, you can tell that [03:21] he had the demeanor of someone who's used to being listen [03:24] to, he was born at Kennedy. [03:26] He was always very political and it's almost like he's used [03:32] to being listened to on any topic, [03:34] whether it's cryptocurrency or Ukraine, you know, [03:37] he goes He studies it and then you know, [03:39] he goes out and talks about what he's learned and he's used to [03:42] people take him seriously. [03:43] And so he's, you know, it's on in some ways cuz you look at [03:48] him and you he says he Bears a striking resemblance to his dad. [03:51] Everyone always said he was the one that was the most similar [03:54] and the one that most kind of had his political talents but he [03:57] he has a vocal disorder. [03:59] He lost his voice when he was forty-two. [04:01] He he says it's a side effect of the vaccine and there's [04:05] no proof of that. [04:06] But it's almost like you're looking at his dad or at his uncle [04:09] at someone who looks pretty familiar. [04:11] But, you know, he got old and they never did. [04:13] And so he kind of has this again, this [04:16] is very kind of 60s. [04:18] Look, A very simple way of expressing himself, [04:20] but it's when you listen to what is actually saying, [04:24] he's someone, who clearly spent a lot of time online. [04:26] He speaks kind of in the in the parlance of someone who's spent [04:31] a lot of time with Twitter spaces and talks a lot and kind of [04:34] right-wing telegram groups. [04:35] And so it is a really odd combination of that kind of sixties [04:39] nostalgic style. You guys are popular in the 60s, [04:44] just like his uncle and his dad he will have his sleeves rolled [04:46] up in there a certain look that consciously or unconsciously. [04:50] He's trying to emulate and at the same time he's probably [04:53] the most online that he's got a tick tock, [04:55] he's out there talking about censorship and you know, [04:59] you know, all those kind of things. [05:00] And so is it was very, it was a very interesting conversation, [05:03] two to listen to someone who I got stuck in such different [05:07] kind of Spears when you talk about him sort of going on and on, and [05:11] on at length. [05:18] Lots of seems like it's a Nostalgia that goes beyond just the [05:21] Kennedy family, right? [05:22] It's it's a it's an older America that he's trying to invoke. [05:25] Yeah, it really struck me from his work throughout his life [05:29] in different ways. [05:30] He keeps referring back to, you know, [05:32] and even before he was even alive, [05:34] and he's kind of talking about, you know, [05:35] people used to be able to go out when they lost her job and [05:37] you know, catch fish in the river and feed their families [05:40] and now the rivers are polluted and so I'm trying to say is it [05:44] goes all the way back. [05:44] He really kind of house is very nostalgic vision of America [05:48] but especially kind of from what he considers, [05:51] the Golden Era of the 60s which again, [05:53] you know, his life was kind of divided into before. [05:56] And after his father was assassinated and, [05:58] you know, it cut short, this campaigne that was so much about [06:01] optimism about, forward-looking Bobby, Kennedy campaign [06:04] was, it was just all about the future in about, [06:08] you know, this this particular vision for America and he sees [06:11] himself as the heir of that. [06:13] But really all he talks about is a past, [06:15] he kind of talks about, you know, [06:16] their companies in you. [06:18] Be able to poison medicines without anyone holding me accountable. [06:20] The government's, you know, people used to trust the government [06:23] and, you know, not to lie to them, [06:26] but he speaks about this era and clearly wants to return to it. [06:34] And so, I specifically just asked him, [06:35] I said, it's an actual strikes, me pretty, [06:37] pretty maggotty, pretty Trump in and he said, [06:40] he'd let you know I I I want to go back to the Americas, [06:43] my youth, and he wants to know when you go to his campaign [06:47] rallies, the signs are I'm at Kennedy Democrat. [06:50] And then the same font in the same blue block letters from the [06:53] 60s, and even though I think most people now, [06:56] but it's still kind of seems to bring up something in most Democrats [07:02] in this era, that's clearly. [07:04] Been kind of idealized, but they, you know, [07:07] it sounds pretty good for people to say, [07:08] sure, we want to go back to that, [07:09] we're decided fight with a current current political sphere. [07:12] We're okay with vide, we don't really like him all that much [07:14] and would love to go back to what you're describing. [07:18] People probably know the famous name, they may know his anti-vaccine [07:22] activism, but but talked a little bit about his career before [07:25] that. So he, you know, he got really into environmental [07:29] law when he was younger, he spent three decades, [07:32] you know, becoming a very famous Environmental Lawyer. [07:35] He he got all kinds of awards accolades respected in the field. [07:41] He was, he's pretty intense and obsessive about his passions, [07:45] everyone says that you can tell no matter what he focuses [07:49] on, he's he kind of has to be that way. [07:50] And so he just, you know, relentlessly, [07:53] pursued polluters views are credited with cleaning up the Hudson, [07:56] you do kind of doing all the company's coal oil and you know, [08:02] focusing a lot of indigenous communities. [08:04] He traveled a lot of South America and you know, [08:07] again like it did, that's what many people do, [08:08] remember, I think it was used on magazine covers. [08:11] I see no big-hitting matters. [08:12] The one is going to be there to put the one with the political [08:15] future and then [08:18] Is it important to realize that this is a continuation [08:21] of the world for you? [08:22] It's not a lot of people have been asking recently since become [08:26] so prominent. You know what happened to RFK Jr. [08:28] You know, when did he kind of what he's go off the deep end. [08:32] But when you is important to understand that for him, [08:34] he was pursuing polluters and then he decided that vaccines [08:38] were polluted with Mercury. [08:39] None of this as a scientific basis of scientists and experts [08:44] say it's not true. [08:47] But, you know, he basically decided that vaccines were being [08:51] polluted, it died. [08:52] You know, he says died when he was younger, [08:54] that was no autism allergies. [08:59] He basically, he pulls this all these facts together, [09:01] which it, you know, that's what they take out of context [09:04] and basically decided, I didn't know kind of in the same idea [09:08] of going backwards. [09:09] The thing that I change, we're back to the Inns and they're [09:12] dangerous for children, and I guess there's no factual basis [09:15] to this but he founded [09:18] Does an energy. [09:19] Basically built the largest anti-vaccine organization [09:23] in the United States and the Kennedy name kind of help with [09:26] that because if you come out of nowhere and start saying these [09:29] things, you might not get very far, [09:30] but use the family name to kind of give some respectability [09:34] to very French anti-vaccine views. [09:37] Would you remain friends until recently until the pandemic [09:40] have brought a lot of these probably important to emphasize [09:45] very dangerous on scientific non-factual ideas about vaccines [09:50] into the mainstream, very dangerous ideas but but he's had this [09:54] appetite for conspiracy theories for a long time in addition [09:58] to the vaccine stuff, even even stuff about his dad, [10:00] right, right. And he seemed to be a bit more on TV interviews, [10:07] to talk about his family to talk about his environmental [10:09] work. And once he really weird hard into these, [10:13] you know, dangerous conspiracy theories about vaccines, [10:16] he was kind of ostracized. [10:17] You wasn't allowed Documentary about his dad, [10:20] he was people. [10:20] Basically, he didn't want to do anything until he started [10:24] going further further to every kind of conspiracies, [10:27] which you may have kind of believed before, [10:29] but clearly now felt so you might as well go into them. [10:32] So, he had a very expensive theory about the 2004 election [10:36] being stolen, he thinks if ye killed his dad, [10:39] he, you know, it and then you just kind of goes on, [10:42] zaidi is being installed in order to harvest are, [10:45] are you know, all kinds of different formation about us and all [10:48] these things usually positions in a way that many people would [10:51] kind of agree with, and then, he kind of goes way way further [10:54] a tactic that it's pretty effective to get people to believe [10:58] in conspiracies, governing philosophy Beyond this sort of idea [11:04] that there's a conspiracy out there, does he have a set of political [11:08] beliefs that you could imagine, you know, [11:09] being president and, and, and, and working from that, [11:13] right? I mean he isnae idea. [11:18] A proposal to anything like that for for most areas his main [11:23] idea is that, you know, there's his corporate control of government [11:26] of every agency and he needs to route that out. [11:29] He needs to get rid of all those financial conflicts of interest, all [11:32] those entanglements, and, you know, basically return the [11:36] government to the people and his, his tagline for his campaign [11:39] is reclaim democracy, which is pretty Stark particular [11:42] way to. And again, I asked him, [11:46] how would you do that? [11:46] You know how old that seems? [11:48] You know, it sounds, I think your people would disagree [11:50] that rooting out corruption. [11:53] All the things he says on their face, [11:56] sound good to most people. [11:57] He said, he would be very easy. [11:59] He was fully confident. [12:00] He said, I'm just, you know, he says he sued so many of these [12:03] agencies that he knows exactly who's a good person or a bad person [12:05] and he'll be able to, basically get rid of them. [12:07] And I just kind of started getting him some agencies. [12:10] I said, you know what about the FDA? [12:12] He's like, oh yeah, you know, I'm going to put in the people, [12:15] I used to work with the lawyer. [12:18] CIA. And he said, most people were just trying to do their [12:23] best, but again you need to kind of get rid of the top vanity. [12:26] No top people who are, you know, [12:28] it is. Mine kind of completely controlled by all these corrupt [12:32] corporations that are pulling the strings. [12:34] And the main, that's just as main message is basically [12:38] get me in there and I will kind of go back to this particular [12:41] version of thank you know you didn't have our discussions [12:44] of particular immigration policy. He [12:46] doesn't have comprehensive policies for healthcare. [12:49] Maybe, you know, that was early days but the two main things [12:53] are kind of corporate control. [12:56] What he does, the corporate control of American government [12:58] and also for Ukraine and kind of get America out of the cycle [13:07] of being a ball to Broad. [13:08] And most interesting things I thought about your story was this [13:12] very unconventional set of fans that he's attracted. [13:15] He obviously runs in some very Circles campaign now is attracting [13:22] support for from everyone, from Aaron Rodgers, [13:24] the quarterback to to Jack Dorsey, the Twitter founder Alicia [13:28] Silverstone, other other Hollywood figured, I could talk a little [13:32] bit about this was a very unconventional campaign. [13:34] He's running. Yeah, it's it's very odd. [13:37] The kind of people. [13:37] He's attractive have pretty big megaphones, you know, [13:39] they're very well known people. [13:40] Some of them again. [13:43] I think a lot of them are kind of drawn there. [13:45] They're not excited about Joe Biden, and it's not that they're [13:49] necessarily behind everything. [13:51] RFK Jr. Is selling because it's still unclear. [13:54] Like, we said, what exactly he selling for the most part, [13:56] but they like having an alternative and what they're really [13:59] drawn to I think, is being able to discuss these pet issues [14:03] with a lot of them have as well. [14:04] You know, Alicia Silverstone. [14:06] The actress was very well-presented. [14:08] Maxine organization to do, you know, which is called the Children's [14:11] Health defense fund. [14:12] So it's like $8 [14:13] around the idea of children and like, [14:15] you know, but you know what kind of saving the children. [14:18] Other people like what he says about censorship, [14:21] if it has been a very long ongoing debate, [14:24] especially last couple years about people being canceled [14:26] about people who, you know, who decides, [14:28] what information will be on Twitter. [14:31] You know, this is the kind of free speech, [14:32] absolutist, Ian must file people. [14:35] He, he basically just because of his name and because of the [14:39] way she is, she's basically giving all these people a platform [14:43] in order to discuss need ideas in a way that you would never [14:45] have with even friends with anyone who was kind of in the current [14:49] political mainstream and so people, you know, [14:52] must wants to have a conversation, where are FID? [14:57] You and your ma must keep that. [14:59] What do you think and do boss was thrilled to tell him what [15:01] he thought? And so he is I think that's the reason to talk to him. [15:05] This very unlikely Coalition is partly is left because [15:08] people most people don't want you to feel hear what are P. [15:12] Junior things in terms of X in the country, [15:14] but he's presenting an opportunity to have these conversations. [15:18] Interesting. So I should report even most members of his family, [15:22] don't support what he's doing, they've written not bad saying you [15:25] don't he's sort of using the Kennedy name but he does seem [15:29] to be getting traction letters. [15:30] Consistently. Now in a lot of these early polls of the Democratic [15:34] primary. He's in solid double digits, as high as 20%, [15:37] should we be taking him seriously as a candidate, [15:40] could he win? [15:42] Well, that's a good question. [15:44] I think there aren't many people challenging Joe Biden. [15:48] So, I think, in terms of polls, [15:49] he had a lot of name recognition again. [15:51] Kennedy people at, you know, you talked to both theirs and they [15:54] say, Okay, lot of people are just saying, [15:56] yes, I would support him because they aren't excited about [15:59] Biden. And the Kennedy name means something, [16:01] but he is. [16:02] Attracting like I was skeptical, but he is attracting [16:05] a interesting amount of support. [16:07] I spoken to a lot of people who either didn't vote in the last [16:11] election or, you know, just just kind of seemed for four for [16:15] different reasons. Motivated about this guy and he is running [16:19] what he calls kind of. [16:20] But you know he's he's going a lot of podcast, [16:22] he's kind of attracting. [16:23] He's really, he's spending. [16:25] He's getting a lot of oxygen from a lot of new mediums not that [16:29] new but that aren't really use as much and campaigning. [16:32] It's a lot of people basically listening to him. [16:34] You know, he's recently gone on Joe Rogan 11 million people [16:37] listen to every episode of an average. [16:39] And so that's a lot of people for someone like Dim Hue. [16:43] Four years ago was completely on the fringes and nobody would [16:45] believe I have on their platform just to talk about some pretty [16:49] dangerous conspiracy theories, you know, the doctors and everything. [16:53] You know, this is going to get people killed and he says, [16:55] he told me straight up, he said a running for president, [16:58] makes it hard for me to be censored it. [17:00] So he's kind of doing this to an extent to be listened to. [17:03] And when you talk to him, you really get the sense that he was. [17:07] He was very upset and very hurt. [17:10] And by all these, by family members, [17:12] by the political establishment by one, turning their backs [17:15] on someone, they used to call during campaign season 2 indoors [17:17] though. You know? [17:17] And so, he feels like he's an element, [17:20] he's doing what he's meant to be doing. [17:22] And I do just by going out there and constantly, [17:26] not refusing a single interview going on every podcast. [17:28] I don't think you can win, but I think he's exposing his. [17:33] Real goal seemed to me to also just expose the most people [17:36] that he can to the ideas. [17:37] It sounds like it's almost a form of indication for him. [17:42] We're right at the end of your pace that, [17:44] that, that his candidacy made may say more about America [17:47] in 2023 than that about him specifically, [17:49] what to you, is the larger phenomenon that he represent. [17:54] I think he's giving know this is a it started, [17:58] it was started before covid but it really became bullied [18:01] a parent's most people during covid-19 LeSabre types discussed [18:08] we can call it conspiracy theories and call it this information, [18:11] but really wanting to be out there challenging challenging. [18:16] The kind of what they would call the mainstream narrative [18:19] about whether it's covid-19 is a lot of kind of anti-establishment [18:22] contrarian. People who have pretty, you give a big platforms [18:26] where we know pretty well off. [18:28] And they want to be having this conversation these conversations [18:30] in a political context and he's basically giving them the excuse [18:34] to do that. [18:34] And so I think that, you know, [18:36] people love to stuff in this kind of stuff. [18:37] People have a lot of the pandemic, [18:39] the disruption of it. [18:40] And just, you know, just the amount of confusion that they was [18:44] with the health maintenance with everything else. [18:46] You know, people had a lot of legitimate questions about that. [18:49] It also allow you to give an opening for a lot of conspiracy [18:53] theories. [18:54] How deep in distress of government of government agencies [18:57] of the government, telling you what to do and, [18:59] you know, the back seat again. [19:01] See, mended kind of only expanded that and he used that to his [19:05] Advantage because he's basically, you know, he, [19:08] he, he and many other people's want to keep forgetting [19:11] what happened during covid and you know, [19:14] with everything with his 2020 election, January 6th, [19:18] very big moment, the truck, this moment happened and these [19:21] people want to keep discussing it and kind of what they want [19:23] to say is we were right so he's kind of you know that we [19:26] were right about this you know they said that you should wear [19:29] a mask and then if it doesn't understand some people want to keep [19:33] discussing it. A lot of people who really fell into those things. [19:36] You know lost family members over at lost jobs over it and you [19:39] know they were ostracized by people and now he's getting [19:42] them a chance to kind of be kind of Vindicated and so I'm a [19:46] very high platform discussion of these things which a year ago [19:50] probably wouldn't be getting another option is such a Sitting [19:54] face. Thank you so much and smiling. ```json [{"@context":"https://schema.org","@type":"NewsArticle","@id":"https://time.com/6275997/biden-rfk-jr-2024-primary/","mainEntityOfPage":{"@type":"WebPage","@id":"https://time.com/6275997/biden-rfk-jr-2024-primary/"},"headline":"How RFK Jr. Could Lose Badly But Still Throw Biden Off His Game","datePublished":"2023-05-01T17:19:55.000Z","dateModified":"2026-10-19T07:15:36.935Z","description":"History is filled with longshot primary challengers who managed to hobble a President running for re-election.","url":"https://time.com/6275997/biden-rfk-jr-2024-primary/","keywords":["The D.C. 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