--- title: Daniel Ellsberg on Nuclear War description: Read an interview with the Pentagon Papers whistleblower about being a nuclear analyst and the possibility of war with North Korea. canonical: https://time.com/5106039/daniel-ellsberg-nuclear-war-north-korea/ author: Lucy Feldman article:opinion: true article:content_tier: free article:published_time: 2018-01-17T16:56:43.000Z article:modified_time: 2026-08-04T07:53:45.201Z article:section: Ideas og:title: Pentagon Papers Whistleblower Daniel Ellsberg Encourages Leaks og:description: 'Don’t wait until the bombs are falling’ og:url: https://time.com/5106039/daniel-ellsberg-nuclear-war-north-korea/ og:site_name: TIME og:image: https://static.time.com/v3/assets/bltea6093859af6183b/blt48eafbb55328303c/6988f87c7cdbac7bdad5b9eb/daniel-ellsberg.jpg?branch=production&width=1200&quality=75&auto=webp&crop=16:9 og:image:width: 5403 og:image:height: 3039 og:image:alt: daniel-ellsberg og:type: article twitter:card: summary_large_image twitter:title: Pentagon Papers Whistleblower Daniel Ellsberg Encourages Leaks twitter:description: 'Don’t wait until the bombs are falling’ twitter:image: https://static.time.com/v3/assets/bltea6093859af6183b/blt48eafbb55328303c/6988f87c7cdbac7bdad5b9eb/daniel-ellsberg.jpg?branch=production&width=1200&quality=75&auto=webp&crop=16:9 ---  # 'Don’t Wait Until the Bombs Are Falling.’ Pentagon Papers Leaker Encourages More Like Him > Sponsored content. 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The Post _ Official Trailer HD _ 20th Century FOX_  by [Lucy Feldman](https://time.com/author/lucy-feldman/)  ## Lucy Feldman Editorial Director Jan 17, 2018 4:56 PM UTC  Former military analyst Daniel Ellsberg comes out in support of the U.C. Berkley students as they set up a tent city in Sproul Plaza on Berkeley's campus, staying with them until the early morning despite the threat of arrest. Former military analyst Daniel Ellsberg comes out in support of the U.C. Berkley students as they set up a tent city in Sproul Plaza on Berkeley's campus, staying with them until the early morning despite the threat of arrest. Julie Dermansky—Corbis/Getty Images  by [Lucy Feldman](https://time.com/author/lucy-feldman/)  ## Lucy Feldman Editorial Director Jan 17, 2018 4:56 PM UTC The country is currently not the closest we’ve ever come to nuclear war, says Daniel Ellsberg, but we are still likely to face annihilation. And recent [false alarms in Hawaii](http://time.com/5102630/hawaii-false-missile-alert-procedures/) and Japan, erroneously alerting residents to incoming missiles, do nothing to quell the anxiety. “This was a little rehearsal,” Ellsberg says, “but not the first one, of being right on the edge of destruction.” The history-making whistleblower softens no blows, sugarcoats nothing. The 86 year-old went to battle with the U.S. government when he released [the Pentagon Papers in 1971](http://newsfeed.time.com/2013/06/10/times-1971-cover-stories-on-daniel-ellsberg-and-the-pentagon-papers/), walking away a free man after a landmark trial in which he was charged under the Espionage Act. But Ellsberg has more alarms to sound. “The threats to exterminate North Korea for acts by its leaders are illegal, immoral, monstrous,” he tells TIME from his home in Kensington, Calif. There is a chance humanity will survive the weapons of its own making — but “it’s very unlikely.” Ellsberg’s urgent interest in nuclear debate runs deep. Before he released the material that revealed the government misled the public about the extent of U.S. involvement in the Vietnam War — a story newly refreshed by Matthew Rhys as Ellsberg in [Steven Spielberg’s latest, ](http://time.com/5079506/the-post-true-story/)[_The Post_](http://time.com/5079506/the-post-true-story/)— Ellsberg was a nuclear analyst and consultant to the Department of Defense, where he helped draft Secretary Robert McNamara’s plans for nuclear war. In December, he released [_The Doomsday Machine: Confessions of a Nuclear War Planner_](https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1608196704/ref=as%5Fli%5Fqf%5Fasin%5Fil%5Ftl?ie=UTF8&tag=time037-20&creative=9325&linkCode=as2&creativeASIN=1608196704&linkId=5062ec4c8e22bda13854b00c4b89cc29), a book which unravels his untold history with 1960s nuclear secrets and his would-be plans to release them. The book — and the first-hand understanding of the dangers of nuclear war it yields — come at an essential moment, as President Donald Trump knocks on the door of [conflict with North Korea](http://time.com/5046539/trump-begging-for-nuclear-war/). The claim that casualties resulting from war with North Korea would be “over there” rather than “over here,” put forth by [Republican Sen. Lindsey Graham of South Carolina](https://www.vox.com/world/2017/8/1/16075198/trump-lindsey-graham-north-korea-war) in August, is both “vile” and “false,” Ellsberg declares; [Kim Jong Un](http://time.com/time-person-of-the-year-2017-kim-jong-un-runner-up/) has planned for the ability to cause harm in the U.S., of that we can be sure. “Trump could not totally eliminate, even in a surprise nuclear attack, the North Korean ability to retaliate,” Ellsberg says. And don’t forget chemical warfare capability: Kim’s half-brother [Kim Jong Nam was assassinated](http://time.com/4678349/north-korea-china-kim-jong-na-un-malaysia-assassination/) just under a year ago with the nerve agent VX. The risk of conflict with North Korea, Ellsberg contends, is likely to be far, far greater than what we’ve been told. “If I had access to those official estimates right now, I would certainly consider putting that information out to the press, to the public, to Congress and the world,” he says, adding a plea to those who might have truths within their reach: “Don’t do what I did; don’t wait until the bombs are falling or thousands have died if you have information that might avert that.” Also on Ellsberg’s whistleblowing wish list: the 6,000-page 2012 Senate report on torture. The decision whether to leak or keep nuclear secrets was made for him. The most intriguing tale in his book, fodder for a political thriller on its own, involves the documents he never made public. All the while Ellsberg busily copied 7,000 classified pages from the “History of U.S. Decision-Making in Vietnam, 1945-68” report, he also copied a trove of documents on the country’s nuclear program—pages he judged even more crucial, more imperative to the fate of the country than those on the war in Southeast Asia. Pages he always intended to release at the conclusion of his Pentagon Papers trial. But Mother Nature denied him the chance: he gave the documents to his brother Harry, who held them in his Westchester County, N.Y. basement for two years, moved them to his compost heap when the FBI started hunting for Ellsberg in 1971, then—the day before mysterious men were seen prodding the spot where they’d been in his yard—to a place near a junked gas stove in the local dump. But a storm swept the papers away, never to be discovered again. Ellsberg is staunchly in favor of counter-proliferation. “It’s possible to make a case for a small deterrent force of nuclear weapons if your neighbors or adversaries, opponents at war, have such weapons,” Ellsberg admits — but he cites [Herbert York](http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/25/us/25york.html), the nuclear physicist who once ran the Lawrence Livermore Laboratory, when he adds that we can justify closer to one than 100 weapons. “You do not need the ability to cause nuclear winter to achieve any national objective, like deterring nuclear attack or occupation—you do not need the ability to end most life on earth,” he says. And yet [we have it](http://time.com/4893175/united-states-nuclear-weapons/), as does Russia. On the plus side, he adds: North Korea does not. Ellsberg believes there is a real possibility that the U.S. will go to war with North Korea, and that such a war would be catastrophic. It would not bring about the end of humanity as a war with Russia has the potential to do, he says, but it would kill millions and risk putting the country on a dangerous course, particularly under the leadership of President Trump. Ellsberg speculates there would be a “crackdown” in the U.S., in the event of North Korean retaliation. He envisions a suspension of the Constitution, a country with detention camps, mass deportations and total surveillance — the end of democracy. If there was one lesson the whistleblower learned in the Pentagon Papers episode that we must apply now, it’s this: “Intelligent, patriotic, conscientious men can in secret pursue monstrous policies,” he says. “In other words, in the darkness, prevented from any public awareness, very smart men can act not only stupidly, but also crazily.” ## Transcript [ MUSIC ] So can I ask you a hypothetical question? Dear, I don't like hypothetical questions. Well, I don't think you're gonna like a real one either. [ MUSIC ] Do you have the papers? Not yet. [ SOUND ] This is a devastating security breach. That was leaked out of the Pentagon? The most highly classified documents of the war. [ SOUND ] The Times says 7000 pages detailing how the White House has been lying about the Vietnam War for For 30 years. [ SOUND ] The way they lied, those days have to be over. Kay, people are concerned about having a woman in charge of the paper. That she doesn't have the resolve to make the tough choices. Thank you Arthur, for your frankness. Let's do our jobs Find those pages. [ MUSIC ] We're talking about exposing years of government secrets. Is that legal? What is it you think we do here for a living kid. Men I might have something. It must be precious cargo. It's just government secrets. The New York Times was barred from publishing anymore classified documents. Was dealing with the Vietnam War. The new publish won't be in the Supreme Court next week. Meaning. We could all go to prison. To make this decision, to risk her fortune and the company that's been her. My entire life. Well, I think that's brave. If the government wins, the Washington Post will cease to exist. If we don't hold them accountable, who will? You can't hold them accountable if you don't have a newspaper. Nixon will muster the full power of the presidentcy and if there's a was to destroy you, I'll die. and he'll find it I'm asking your advice Bob, not your permission She can't do this, the legacy of the company is at stake what will happen if we don't publish? We will lose, the country will lose What are you going to do Mrs. Graham? 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