--- title: Robert Redford on Scott Pruitt, the EPA and Climate Change description: The actor and activist writes about EPA chief Scott Pruitt and how his policies affect environmental protections canonical: https://time.com/4995744/robert-redford-scott-pruitt/ author: Robert Redford article:opinion: true article:content_tier: free article:published_time: 2017-10-24T20:39:30.000Z article:modified_time: 2026-08-04T07:54:03.048Z article:section: Ideas og:title: Robert Redford: Scott Pruitt Is 'Hell-Bent' On Harming the Environment og:description: 'We only have one planet, one home, one shot' og:url: https://time.com/4995744/robert-redford-scott-pruitt/ og:site_name: TIME og:image: https://static.time.com/v3/assets/bltea6093859af6183b/bltde093bcdab65f2d0/6988d9b9bc6cfc69913e2a3c/time-logo.jpg?branch=production og:image:width: 1200 og:image:height: 675 og:image:alt: TIME og:type: article twitter:card: summary_large_image twitter:title: Robert Redford: Scott Pruitt Is 'Hell-Bent' On Harming the Environment twitter:description: 'We only have one planet, one home, one shot' twitter:image: https://static.time.com/v3/assets/bltea6093859af6183b/bltde093bcdab65f2d0/6988d9b9bc6cfc69913e2a3c/time-logo.jpg?branch=production --- # Robert Redford: Scott Pruitt Is 'Hell-Bent' On Dismantling EPA Rules > Sponsored content. 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It explains how TIME's journalism is made, from the first pitch through the editorial decisions behind a finished story or cover. #### How can I read about how TIME chooses its covers? Inside TIME is the newsletter where TIME's Editor-in-Chief explains cover selection and the editorial reasoning behind major stories. It is free at time.com/newsletters. #### Who is the editor of TIME? Sam Jacobs is TIME's Editor-in-Chief. He writes Inside TIME, a twice-weekly newsletter about the newsroom's reporting and editorial decisions. #### Is Inside TIME free? Yes. Inside TIME is a free newsletter, available at time.com/newsletters. A paid TIME subscription is separate and available at time.com/subscribe-agent. ### Sources * TIME Newsletters: [time.com/newsletters](/c/time-nl-inside-2026q3/newsletters?i=f7bdecc3-b25d-4ba2-8bf2-0009d6549af2&cr=time-nl-inside-2026q3-v1) ## Video: EPA Administrator Scott Pruitt Speaks Out [Watch (HLS stream): EPA Administrator Scott Pruitt Speaks Out](https://cdn.jwplayer.com/manifests/qXh2hnLM.m3u8) (21:43)  _Published 2017-10-18. EPA Administrator Scott Pruitt speaks to TIME Magazine writer Justin Worland about his vision for the EPA._  by [Robert Redford](https://time.com/author/robert-redford/)  ## Robert Redford Oct 24, 2017 8:39 PM UTC  by [Robert Redford](https://time.com/author/robert-redford/)  ## Robert Redford Oct 24, 2017 8:39 PM UTC Forty-seven years ago, none other than President [Richard Nixon](http://time.com/4966305/trump-arpaio-pardon-abuse/) established the Environmental Protection Agency, recognizing “clean air, clean water, and open spaces should once again be the birthright of every American.” Since that [hopeful launch of the E.P.A](http://time.com/4990265/scott-pruitt-clean-power-plan-epa/)., both Republican and Democratic presidents have affirmed that environmental issues transcend politics. That’s simple to understand as the impacts of clean air, water and climate change impact all Americans, and everyone around the world. What we need to pay more attention to, right now, before it’s too late, is the reality that we’ve put someone in charge of protecting the environment who seems hell-bent on the opposite. Current E.P.A. head [Scott Pruitt](http://time.com/4990265/scott-pruitt-clean-power-plan-epa/) is moving mountains of policy in the directions he favors. And those directions don’t benefit you, or me, or our families. They only benefit the companies and industries that pollute and profit. And they will do whatever it takes to advance their agenda. Now you can add censorship to the list of new E.P.A. techniques. Just this week, E.P.A. scientists who were scheduled to present their research at a leading and respected conference in Rhode Island, were told they were no longer allowed to even share their findings with colleagues. There is no democracy in darkness. My heart goes out to all who have suffered and are suffering each and every time I turn on the news. These changes to our environment and future are very real, with very real consequences we are experiencing every day. We simply cannot let Scott Pruitt’s slash-and-burn attitude toward environmental protections continue. It’s time to put renewed pressure where it’s most needed, in challenging and shining light on what is taking place every day at the E.P.A. Here’s how: call your elected officials today and let them know you want a tough and science-led E.P.A. with the strongest mandates for protecting our environment and our future. Let them know what you think of Scott Pruitt’s leadership, and ask them to support stronger oversight of the agency, stronger scrutiny of their decisions and ethics investigations into any wrongdoing. We only have one planet, one home, one shot. This is it. ## Transcript [00:00] Thank you for taking time again. It's good to be with [00:02] you. Let's start, I'd like to start really broadly and ask, [00:06] what's your vision for the EPA, for the agency, and then [00:10] just to add a sort of specific point we get to address [00:13] is, how much of that vision is centered around rolling [00:16] back regulations and things from your predecessors [00:18] and how much is About instituting new things. I think a [00:22] couple of things initially with respect to the mission. I'll [00:25] speak to specifics versus an overall vision first if you [00:29] don't mind. Yeah of course. With respect to specifics I [00:32] think getting back to the core basic missions of the [00:34] agency to really focus on very constructive, tangible. [00:39] Outcomes that in respect to how we are improving the [00:41] environment and that's one thing that we are really [00:43] focused upon. We've got a dashboard that we have [00:45] created that focuses on progress being made in air [00:48] quality, water quality, land remediation and the various [00:51] areas that we regulate as an agency and measuring [00:54] that every single day because I think that's what [00:56] matters is for people to see tangible results. So, part [01:00] of what I did initially coming into this position Was [01:03] advance of Back to the Basic agenda. Asking ourselves, [01:06] with respect to air attainment, as an example. 40 % of [01:09] the country live in areas that don't meet air quality [01:12] standards, about 120 million people. Under those [01:15] criteria pollutants that we regulate under the Clean Air [01:17] Act. How do we improve that? How do we track [01:19] progress? And how do we They'd be in a better place [01:21] two, and four and six years from now, than we are [01:24] today. With water quality, infrastructure has been a [01:27] major point of emphasis for the president. Investing in [01:30] our infrastructure to ensure safe drinking water, and [01:33] so the super fun size is an example as well drinking [01:36] water. Water safety is an issue. And then, you know, [01:40] when you look at the super- fun sites. We have over [01:43] 1336 sites across the country, approximately. And the [01:46] more sites today than there were eight years ago. So, [01:49] how do we actually show progress in remediating sites [01:51] like Portland and East Chicago, and San Jacinto, and [01:55] Houston that we just made a decision on. So we're [01:57] trying to raise focus upon specific fundamental [02:01] responsibilities of doing our job with each of these [02:04] statutes that we administer that Congress has given us [02:06] authority. And then big picture, I think it's very [02:09] important to help renew thinking, to help us as a [02:13] country understand that environmental stewardship [02:16] Should be our objective should be our goal. It's to [02:19] manage our natural resources with a commitment to [02:22] environmental stewardship and sensitivity for future [02:25] generations. Environmental protection is not to put up [02:28] a fence to say though we can feed the world we're not [02:32] We can power the world or not. It's to use the natural [02:34] resources that we've been blessed with as a country to [02:36] help feed the world, power the world. But also do it in [02:39] a way that is environmentally conscious and sensitive to [02:42] future generations. So that's kind of a reorientation of [02:46] thinking, an attitude, if you will. Along with those [02:48] specific focal points of measurements in each of these [02:52] areas of air, land, and water. Right, so sort of implicit [02:56] in that is the point about rollbacks, but I'm curious. I [02:59] mean, how much do you think about, in getting back to [03:02] basics, we need to sort of, well, for lack of a better [03:05] word, undo, some of the things that have happened in [03:07] the last- Well, the regulatory, it's more of a more [03:09] regulatory reform, which is focused upon regulatory [03:12] clarity because People forget this. It's fifth [03:17] grade civics. The EPA, like other agencies of [03:21] the federal government, are housed in the Executive [03:22] Branch. Our job is to enforce the law. And so when a [03:26] statute is passed by Congress, whether it's The Clean [03:28] Air Act or TSCA or CERCLA or Clean Water Act, our job [03:32] is to administer that statute pursuant to the [03:34] responsibilities and obligations And authority that [03:37] Congress has given us. And what's happened the last [03:39] several years is this agency, among others, but this [03:42] agency particularly, has taken those statutes and really [03:45] stretched them so far that the courts have had to step [03:48] in and say you don't have authority or you didn't have [03:49] authority to do that, which when that happens it [03:52] creates uncertainty. It doesn't create good [03:54] environmental outcomes. you know citizens and states [03:57] and folks who cross the country don't know what's [03:59] expected of them as they live within that kind of [04:01] framework, so getting back to the basics is. You know [04:04] what does rule of law say? You know what does the [04:06] statute say? How do we take that authority and adopt [04:10] regulations that are consistent with that, so that we [04:12] have regulatory clarity and certainty on the back end [04:14] which then gives people the ability to invest To allocate [04:18] resources and capital to meet those environmental [04:20] objectives. It all works together in a very cohesive way. [04:24] So when you get out of synch with respect to rule of law [04:27] or process, and you get away from that, it creates this [04:31] dynamic of confusion in the marketplace and good [04:34] outcomes don't happen. Right. So I don't want to [04:38] jump between specifics and sort of those higher level [04:40] questions, but I want to ask about obviously, Flint's [04:43] been in the news lately. As clean power plan repeal, [04:48] specifically I'm curious about the endangerment [04:52] finding and whether that's something that you expect [04:56] to take comments on in the upcoming And PRM, and [05:02] also why you chose to leave it out of the repeal last [05:04] week. Well, we wouldn't take comments on the [05:06] endangerment finding as part of the advance notice of [05:09] the proposed rule making. And the reason we did not [05:12] make reference to the advance on this proposed rule [05:14] making in the withdraw is because we're taking a two [05:17] step approach, I mean. Speaking to regulatory clarify, [05:21] what's important with The US Supreme Court stay in [05:23] place, and we can't forget that. It was unprecedented. [05:28] It never happened before. The US Supreme Court [05:30] intervened in the midst of a case that was being [05:32] litigated in the DC circuit to stay the enforcement of a [05:36] rule. And that stay is still in place today. And [05:40] so, all the effort that the past administration engaged [05:43] in, to build that record, to pass the clean power plant, [05:45] to adopt that regulation, achieved no positive end with [05:49] respect to their environmental legacy. And so what's [05:52] very important is to provide clarity around that. That's [05:55] why we have a withdrawal of that rule in a stand alone [05:58] fashion. And then we'll have a second step. That is [06:02] focused upon a very modest, and I think consistent [06:05] view with what section 111 in the clean air act permits. [06:08] And that process is yet to come, but it will be part of [06:10] the advanced proposed rule making. And so do you [06:12] anticipate having the role that comes [06:16] out of that or is there a chance that the process yields [06:20] that? We've been spending many, many months [06:22] evaluating section 111, the clean air act to [06:27] ask and answer the question what authority exists. And [06:28] I do believe there's authority some modest authority in [06:31] section 111 for us to take action that's something yet [06:35] to be determined, but that something that were [06:37] looking at doing through this advance notice of [06:39] proposal making. I actually introduced I talked about [06:41] this back in June of 2015, he's attorney general at the [06:44] time. Introduced something called the Oklahoma Plan [06:47] that was a statutory analysis of what authority I [06:51] believe existed with respect to Section 111. So that is [06:54] ongoing and it will be ongoing for months and in the [06:56] future. But that process is important, because [07:00] we have a responsibility. To take the clean air act, ask [07:03] and evaluate what authority is given to us under the [07:06] law to regulated CO2 with power regulation facilities [07:10] and that's what we're doing, that's what we're doing. [07:11] That's what we've been charged to do .>> Why not? I [07:14] mean you've spoken about the endangerment finding [07:17] and say that you're not going to look at that. Again, [07:21] why >> Well, specifically your question was as part of [07:23] the Clean power plant withdrawal or the advanced [07:25] owners proposed rule making. What are you gonna [07:26] take comment on that? Right. So, to specifically [07:30] address your question there, that's what I responded [07:32] to yeah. [ UNKNOWN ] I was referring more to your [07:34] confirmation hearings and such when that topic came [07:37] up, but I mean it sounds like you are open to perhaps [07:39] looking at the endangerment finding. Again is that- No, [07:42] I'm responding to specific questions [ CROSSTALK ] so I [07:45] think what's important With respect to the backdrop [07:49] of the respect to CO2 regulation. You know, a lot of [07:53] people just start with the endangerment finding and [07:56] the scientific questionings about the underpinnings of [07:58] that. They don't ask about what authority we have to [08:01] do it ultimately anyway and both are very important. [08:04] The last administration took the latter question about [08:07] what authority existed and simply reimagined and [08:10] expanding it so far, the US Supreme Court stepped in. [08:12] And they didn't achieve any positive ends from their [08:15] perspective. I mean, they actually tried to regulate [08:17] twice and struck out twice. Right. The Tailoring Rule [08:19] was one, which was struck down in the UR decision. [08:21] And then the Clean Power Plan was stayed by the US [08:23] Supreme Court. So The whole response to the [08:26] endangerment, I think what the American people [08:28] deserve, is an open, honest, transparent discussion [08:31] about what do we know and what don't we know with [08:33] respect to CO2? And that's the reason the red team [08:35] blue team exercise has been a part of what I've been [08:39] talking about engaging in. But that's untethered, that's [08:42] unrelated to the substantive rule making that we're [08:44] engaged in right now with respect to the advanced [08:46] notice [ INAUDIBLE ] rule making, On NCCP .>> Okay, [08:51] one more of these .>> Does that make sense ?>> No, [08:52] yeah it absolutely does. I'll get back to the higher level [08:55] things, but what do you say to, not [09:00] critics, but actually people who support what you're [09:02] doing who say, well if you don't go after the main [09:07] _______ We're just going to end up with a Clean Power [09:08] Plan again, the next time a new President comes to [09:11] office. And some of the others who say well we really [09:14] need to make sure we have a replacement because it's [09:16] creating regulatory uncertainty. We don't like the Clean [09:18] Power Plan, but We want something that's different. [09:22] What- [ UNKNOWN ] response is, I've got a job to do [09:24] and we're doing it. And, I'm an old baseball guy too [09:26] and Yogi Berra's one of my favorite philosophers, I [09:29] guess, in many respects. He said, one time Predictions [09:32] are pretty touch, particularly about the future. And I [09:35] think a lot of folks want me to predict, you know about [09:37] what's coming next. And my job is to do what's before [09:40] me and addressing the issues that are before me and [09:43] we know this, the clean power plan rule is deficient [09:47] because it's been questioned by the US Supreme Court [09:50] and the stay has been issued which creates [09:52] uncertainties. We have to deal with that number one [09:54] Number two, we have an obligation to evaluate. What [09:57] section 111 in the in the conier act actually says to this [09:59] issue. And we are doing that. And then thirdly, I think, [10:03] as I've indicated earlier, the American people deserve [10:06] an open, transparent, honest discussion about this [10:08] issue. We ought to do that as a country. Because what [10:11] the endangerment represents. And this is the first time [10:13] in history that this ever occurred. This agency took [10:16] work product of the UN International Panel on Climate [10:20] Change. And adopted it and transferred it to this [10:23] agency. And used that as the basis underpinnings of [10:25] the endangerment fund. That had never happened. [10:28] Right. And it happened in months, by the way. This [10:31] agency doesn't build a record in months, with respect [10:34] to these kinds issues, so it really draws into question, [10:37] do this agency engage in a robust meaningful [10:40] discussion with respect to the endangerment that CO2 [10:43] posses to this country. And I think by any definition [10:47] about process, they didn't. Right. Now, that still [10:51] Untethered it's unrelated to the obligation we're [10:55] engaged in CTP withdrawal, advanced notice to [10:58] proposed rule making those kinds of issues. But there [11:00] is that other aspect that will take more. A lot of folks [11:03] who have heard me talk about the red team blue team [11:05] and they think that's going to take like a week. You [11:07] know but that's actually an exercise that was used [11:09] during the 1970's into the 80's In the intelligence [11:12] community, to assess the soviet threat, and [11:16] to help formulate the response to the soviet threat. To [11:20] how this country has used it. This is a robust, [11:22] meaningful debate discussion, about what do we [11:25] know, what don't we know. And let the American [11:27] people be consumers of that, so that we might be able [11:29] to see consensus around this issue. And I think that's [11:32] very important from a policy perspective. Right. You've [11:34] been on the road a lot, talking to folks. What's been [11:38] the response to everything you've done. I guess [11:41] particularly in the communities that Farming [11:44] communities, the communities, we've talked about [11:46] things like clean power plan rollback by POTUS, etc. [11:49] Well, I think the response, first of all start with [11:52] governors. You know, governors across this country, [11:54] both Democrat and Republican, have been very, very [11:57] thankful and excited about the robust dialogue that [12:01] we're having with them. I had 18 to 20 governors in [12:03] this office Two days after I have been sworn in, [12:06] Democrats and Republicans talking about a multitude [12:08] of issues. Air quality, water quality, various rules that [12:11] have been adopted over the years that Governors care [12:14] about and are concerned about in different ways. And [12:16] so, working with the Governor of Minnesota, the [12:18] Governor of Utah, and the Governor of North Dakota [12:20] and the rest about issues, particularly states. They've [12:23] been very very thankful that we've engaged with them [12:25] in being proactive and how do we work together to [12:28] achieve good environmental outcomes and also see [12:32] economic progress. And that's something that really [12:36] shouldn't be taken for granted because it didn't [12:38] happen in the past administration. And it's really [12:41] important as we look at some of these Superfund sites [12:44] or investment into our infrastructure, issues that [12:47] confront Utah, the second most dry state in the country [12:49] are different than the issues that confront Minnesota on [12:52] water- related issues. So as an agency, it's incumbent [12:55] upon us, it's incumbent upon us as we do our job [12:59] to be engaged in that meaningful dialogue because. [13:02] Congress has been very specific. States have a role. [13:05] They should be partners, not adversaries, and they [13:07] haven't been. So that's one very, very positive thing. [13:10] And as far as stakeholders, I see those stakeholders [13:12] across the country, beyond states, citizens, farmers [13:15] and ranchers and others, not as adversaries, but as [13:18] partners. They care about the water they drink. They [13:20] care about the air they breathe. I really believe that [13:23] that's our greatest asset as a country. In advancing [13:27] environmental outcomes because we've always been [13:28] collaborative and cohesive in partnership oriented in [13:31] achieving good ends as opposed to picking winners [13:34] and losers and engaging in adversarial type of [13:36] posturing which is what happened I think in the past [13:38] few years. > So when environmental groups say you [13:41] spend most of your time meeting with quote unquote [13:43] polluters. Your response it seems might be I don't [13:47] spend any time with polluters. Right. I prosecute [13:50] polluters. Right. What I'm spending time with are [13:53] stakeholders that care of outcomes. I think it's a wrong [13:56] premise, it's Washington DC think to look at folks [14:00] across the country from states to citizens to farmers [14:02] and ranchers. Industry as a general and say they are [14:05] evil or wrong and we're not going to partner with them. [14:07] Right. That's a disservice to achieving good [14:10] environmental outcomes. There aren't enough people [14:12] that this agency can hire to stand on every corner in [14:15] this country to look over the shoulder of all these [14:17] companies and say do this or do that. What we have to [14:20] have are people that are committed to that because [14:22] they are care about outcomes. You know what's great [14:24] about this country? Most of those folks do. And the [14:27] folks that don't? I'm a former attorney general I've led [14:30] a grand jury. I know what it means to prosecute [14:33] people. We already have and I will. So that [14:37] kind of language, frankly, does a disservice in my view [14:41] to what we should be about as a country, which is true [14:44] partnership between states and the federal [14:46] government. And citizens across this country who care [14:49] about water and air and land remediation, working [14:52] together to achieve good outcomes. Right, what do you [14:56] say to the concern that you are -. In fact, I would say [14:59] this, and I'm sorry to keep going. But when you ask [15:02] about the The groups we've met with. Are those [15:05] farmers and ranchers in Iowa or North Dakota or other [15:08] parts, are they less of a conservation environmentalist [15:10] because they're not a part of some association? [15:13] They're our first environmentalists, their greatest asset [15:16] is their land. And that's the stewardship component, [15:19] that's the reason I mentioned at the very beginning, [15:22] what is our aim as a whole as a country? What should [15:24] we be focused on? And environmental stewardship [15:27] Should be our focus. We shouldn't put up fences. We [15:31] should, just to say we've got this tremendous natural [15:33] resource, don't touch it. It's so pristine, don't touch it. [15:36] We should be about, what, managing that natural [15:38] resource. Whether it's water or fossil fuels or land in [15:42] a way to help truly feed out fellow man. If we care [15:46] about developing countries in other parts of the globe, [15:48] we should be doing more of feeding developing [15:50] countries and help power those those countries that [15:53] make them more wealthy to grow the economies. And [15:55] we can do that as a country and that's what is so [15:57] wrong about the view point the true about protection is [16:00] putting up fences that say do not touch. Right. [16:04] Obviously many regulations and rules have, People [16:08] who benefit and lose from that. I'm curious about your [16:12] broad approach to looking at costs and benefits. So [16:16] a specific example would be the Clean Power Plan [16:18] repeal and the not thinking about [16:23] climate co- benefits, for instance. Meaning air [16:28] pollution, etc. How do you think about that? Why is that [16:31] an insur- How do you think, broadly, about what is the [16:33] most important thing to prioritize, when I'm looking at [16:36] the costs and benefits [ UNKNOWN ]? We shouldn't- [16:38] Look, cost- benefit analysis is intended to be truly that, [16:41] which is, as we adopt rules, and you mentioned the [16:44] clean power plan, we shouldn't double count. We [16:47] shouldn't take pollutants that we regulate under our [16:50] National Ambient Air Quality Standards Program And [16:54] then count that as a benefit when we're already [16:56] achieving that with other regulation. And contribute it [16:58] to the CPP cost benefit analysis. And [17:03] they did that because the costs were so extraordinary. [17:07] Here's the thing. There's no authority that I have under [17:10] the Clean Air Act to say to a utility company- To say to [17:14] a stay, you should generate electricity in this way. You [17:19] don't use natural gas, don't use coal, don't use fossils [17:22] of fuels. Use renewables and generations of electricity. [17:25] There is no authority that i have other than what i think [17:27] it's right to do that. That's exactly what the clean [17:29] power planet is. That was their best system of mission [17:32] reduction. And again, this isn't editorial comment. This [17:35] isn't hypothetical type of discussion. The Supreme [17:38] Court stay was based upon a likely basis of not being [17:42] consistent with the Lawful Authority Act. What we've [17:44] always done as an agency, with respect to how we [17:47] regulate. It's always been within side the fence. It's [17:49] always been facility by facility. It's always been focused [17:52] on equipment that would be utilized at that ability to [17:54] reduce emissions in certain areas. And that's when you [17:57] can engage in a true cost benefit analysis to say does it [18:00] meet the requirements of the statute. Now, [18:04] under the NAQs program, as you know, the National [18:07] Air Quality Standards Program, this criteria of [18:09] pollutants of [ UNKNOWN ] and [ UNKNOWN ] and [18:10] particular matter and ozone, you don't even have a [18:12] cost benefit analysis, you can't engage in cost benefit. [18:15] Because it's all about health. So that's an even [18:17] involved. But under section 11, under this particular [18:20] rule. Cost benefit was essential in what the last [18:22] administration did was double count. Through those [18:25] cobenefits, which was something that they had not [18:27] done before. Right. [18:34] Okay What do you say, I guess, I'll wrap in [18:38] two questions into one. How effective is [18:44] the career staff at the agency at helping you get to [18:47] your, to achieve your objectives? And then [18:51] also, as a part of that What is the [18:56] concern that you are taking on too much? Given some [18:58] of the constraints you have, you might not actually [19:03] see through all of the things you saw? Well we have [19:04] achieved so much already. If our aim is regulatory [19:08] clarity, if our aim is to provide regulatory certainty, we [19:11] have done that in any number of areas from ROTUS to [19:13] CPP to all of that and that's on going. Look. We've [19:18] done in a very, in [19:23] a timeframe that I think has been very very good to [19:25] provide that certainty. I mean, we've achieved a lot, [19:27] the president's leadership in giving me direction. To [19:30] say address LOTUS, address CPP, address each of [19:33] these areas. We've done that, and it's going to continue [19:35] into 2018, but most of these area I really see [19:38] culminating and finishing in 2018 So that's going to [19:41] provide the outcome of what we're talking about. Is [19:43] there such still, I mean it's still on going so they that [19:45] you presumably need the work of the agency to [19:47] conceal the confusions. There's no doubt, one thing the [19:49] career staff here, the very first day I was here I mean I [19:52] made it a point, I mean I've been asked many times [19:54] about how competitive it is and how responsive they [19:57] are. I don't want people to presume certain things [19:59] about and I think it's wrong to presume certain things [20:02] about other people so when I came into this position I [20:04] didn't start with an idea that folks here just want me to [20:07] do what we ask him to do. In fact, I start with the [20:09] opposite of that. You know, I talked about listening to [20:11] them and learning from them, but I did tell them that [20:14] we're gonna lead. I did tell them we're gonna make [20:16] decisions. And what's been most striking about my [20:18] time here so far is that in many of these areas, from [20:22] Superfund to water, there was just almost a [20:27] We've revitalized some those areas. There wasnt an [20:30] urgency if you will. And there is more urgency in a [20:33] good way today. With career folks and political folks [20:37] working together to say we should set very clear [20:39] objectives. We should be aiming toward. [20:42] Measurements that we can track on a day to day basis [20:45] and month to month basis over the years. Let's work [20:47] together to achieve that. I've had square staff come up [20:49] to me and say we're super fun task force and the 42 [20:53] recommendations that came out of that. You know [20:54] earlier this year that we're implementing just now. [20:56] They've come up to me and said thank you for doing [20:58] that. You vitalized that area that they kind of was [21:00] languishing before. So it's a good but lawyerly answer. [21:04] Do you think that they [ CROSSTALK ]. Lawyerly? Really? [21:05] Well, thank you. [ LAUGH ] [21:10] Well, you are a good attorney. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Do [21:12] you think that they are helpful in achieving that agenda [21:15] holistically? The Superfund area, it seems like they are. [21:17] But are you finding now [ CROSSTALK ]. I think I've [21:20] answered your question. My goal is to lead. To make [21:23] decisions and to work and partner together as a group [21:25] of individuals toward these objectives we've set. And I [21:28] don't make presumptions about where folks are in that [21:31] regard. We're gonna get the job done. We are getting [21:33] the job done. And we've had many people in this [21:35] agency come up to me and say, we're vitalized in ways [21:37] we haven't been vitalized before. So that's a good [21:40] thing. 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