--- title: Interview: Inventing Ecosystems & Conclusion | TIME description: TIME Editor-at-Large, Jeffrey Kluger sits down with Edward Jung, Founder and Chief Technology Officer of Intellectual Ventures to explore inventing ecosystems and where the future of invention will take us. canonical: https://time.com/video/jik1xZxE/ og:title: Interview: Inventing Ecosystems & Conclusion og:description: TIME Editor-at-Large, Jeffrey Kluger sits down with Edward Jung, Founder and Chief Technology Officer of Intellectual Ventures to explore inventing ecosystems and where the future of invention will take us. og:url: https://time.com/video/jik1xZxE/ og:image: https://cdn.jwplayer.com/v2/media/jik1xZxE/poster.jpg?width=720 og:type: video.other twitter:card: summary_large_image twitter:title: Interview: Inventing Ecosystems & Conclusion twitter:description: TIME Editor-at-Large, Jeffrey Kluger sits down with Edward Jung, Founder and Chief Technology Officer of Intellectual Ventures to explore inventing ecosystems and where the future of invention will take us. twitter:image: https://cdn.jwplayer.com/v2/media/jik1xZxE/poster.jpg?width=720 --- # Interview: Inventing Ecosystems & Conclusion > Sponsored content. 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They are at time.com/newsletters and are separate from a paid subscription. ## Video: Interview: Inventing Ecosystems & Conclusion [Watch (HLS stream): Interview: Inventing Ecosystems & Conclusion](https://cdn.jwplayer.com/manifests/jik1xZxE.m3u8) (30:28)  _Published 2014-05-30. TIME Editor-at-Large, Jeffrey Kluger sits down with Edward Jung, Founder and Chief Technology Officer of Intellectual Ventures to explore inventing ecosystems and where the future of invention will take us._ --- Jul 27, 2023 4:43 PM UTC --- ## More From This Series [All Videos](https://time.com/video/) [Interview: Inventing Globally](/video/jYcUi9qP/) ### Interview: Inventing Globally [The Best Inventions of 2013](/video/2dst8HeQ/) ### The Best Inventions of 2013 [TIME Explains: Mars, with Jeffrey Kluger](/video/5wSa3koN/) ### TIME Explains: Mars, with Jeffrey Kluger --- ## Transcript Thank you. Have we mentioned hash tag time inventions? Yes, I think we have. I wanna thank you Hannah, and thank you again to our panelists. For our last session, we're going to look froward to the future of invention. In our invention poll, we, we explored what areas people see as the likeliest sectors for big innovations coming up. Electronics and computers led the way, which is perhaps not a surprise. Led by followed by healthcare and pharmaceuticals. But, we've found that predicting invention is almost always a risky affair. 20 years ago, there was no practical internet available and today, it effectively runs the world. And 60 years ago, DNA was an entirely alien concept to almost everyone on the planet and yet today it sits at the heart of medical research. Our next speaker is at the cutting edge of invention, and we're going to ask him to do the impossible, which is share his ideas for what innovation, innovations, what ideas are at the precipice. Edward Jung is the founder and Chief Technology Officer of Intellectual Adventures and is considered a true visionary in his field. Edward personally holds more than 500 patents, with 1200 patents pending. Intellectual Adventures is the world's leading organization in creating a global marketplace for invention, and we are excited to explore what he believes are the ingredients in creating a true ecosystem for invention. It's my pleasure to invent, to invent, to invite. [ LAUGH ] I wish I could say I'd take credit for him. To invite Edward Jung to join us. Edward. [ MUSIC ] [ COUGH ] [ MUSIC ]. So, let's start with the obvious question. Which is, what is an invention ecosystem? Clearly there are good places and bad places to invent. So, what defines and distinguishes them? Sure, it's a great question. So, I think, in the past, the invention ecosystem was a thing, that took something from invention to product. So, it involves some investors, and so on. It involves a company, or a startup, or a big product company. marketing, and all these things that we're used to. I think going forward, Invention Ecosystem has to evolve. Because the problems that we need solve today, with inventions, are so large, they're so vast that no single inventor, no single company, can solve them. Whether the issues of an aging population or how we actually feed the world or how we urbanize hundreds of millions of people. You know, these are the things that can't be solved by a single company so the invention ecosystem also has to expand in definition, and my view of that is that it's a incentive system, that allows people ranging from individuals to researchers to multi- national companies to venture capitalists, all these people in large scale to collaborate over a long period of time, decades, to solve big problems. And I think that's kinda the exciting new definition of an invention ecosystem. Well, does that mean that we are then beyond the period of. The sole genius labor away in his garage. Is that, is that now a model for the past? In some ways that is what I'm saying, that kind of model, which still exists and it's still healthy, and it's something that we understand really well now, can solve a lot of interesting problems. It can make my PDA better, it will actually improve the dynamics of my car. And things like that but the truly big problems we got, are just too big for a single person, or a single research facility, or even a single country. Mm- hm. so, you know, you look over there, in China where we are seeing the harbingers of a problem that's going be world wide. Which is how to deal with pollution, or how to deal with energy or how to feed ourselves, and those problems are very large scale. No single company gonna solve it. so, yes we do still need those lone geniuses in their garage. But we also need to figure a way of harnessing people like that, and other people too. In a big kind of system that can solve those kind of large problems. And what does. I mean, a lot of these people spend a lot of time in their garages. And just come out and have nothing at all to show for it. I think we all would love one great patentable idea. You have 500 times more than one great patentable idea with 1, 200 more, more coming. So, what distinguishes you from the rest of us who have never even scored that one, that one patent? Well, you know, I actually think a lot of it just has to do with opportunity. I think there are people I meet, people often ask me what makes a great inventor or how do you find one. My company basically manages the invention of seven of the top ten inventors at the PTO. And PTO is? Sorry, it's the patent office in the United States. In terms of how prolific they are. And I, I guess, you know, end of the day you need some people, who just invent like, ordinary people brief. You know, when they see a shower on, a curtain moves in, or, or you look at traffic which slows down. And there's no accident there anymore. Yeah. Instead of kind of going, wow that's annoying. Yeah. They think, well, why is that happening? Yeah. You know, what is a way of dealing with that? That's just their natural way of doing things. Right. You know, one of the first invention sessions we had, I think it's actually the first one, the inventors, they are partly powered by diet soda. Caffeinated soda I should say. [ LAUGH ]. And our ice maker broke. At the time we just had a regular kitchen refrigerator and the ice maker broke. And immediately I had like the inventor, the DNA sequencer and the radar ray, they're on their hands and knees taking apart the refrigerator trying to figure out why do ice makers work this way. And came up with a series of new ice maker inventions, which I wanted. Them to think more about camera's and, and Right. Program what you mean ology. Yeah. But, you know, they were just there saying, you know, this pouring out of inventionists. Right. And so there are people like that. But I have to say, you know, when I meet with kids, they're all inventive. Right, right. And so, and then when I meet in the same culture the kids, maybe 15 years later. They're less inventive. Right. And so, I actually think the potential is there, and maybe it's, it's a question of our, our educational system or our cultures, that may actually make us less inventive over time. Right, which leads two questions. First of all, so, you don't have anyone on your staff who has solved the shower curtain problem yet? [ LAUGH ] Because, that would be great. [ LAUGH ]. The other question is, what is it then that makes kids less effective as they get older? Is it simply the natural development of the brain that becomes more sharply focused if less wildly creative or is it something institutional that's smothering some of that inventiveness? Well I don't think we know yet. But I guess if I had to make an observation ,. I think over time, you know, the education system was designed to create productivity out of people. And most of the ways we measure productivity are not about inventiveness, right? Right. So, if your productivity is measured by a standardized, or whether you can memorize a lot of dates or formulas or what have you. Then of course we're going to be removing creativity and inventiveness out of kids brains. Right. They're gonna have to find it somewhere else and, as we know in modern society, because of competitiveness, their somewhere else time has been diminishing. Right. So their ability to go out and really express themselves creatively is, is also diminishing. Mm- hm. There's also an interesting homogenization of what kids are exposed to. I think you know if kids get out and see the problems of the world first hand, they'll have a much better appreciation for how simple some of the problems are to solve. Right. And not think, wow, you know it's so hard to be an inventor, it's mostly about thinking of the context of what needs to be invented. Right. After all of the innovation of the twentieth and twenty- first centuries, and you know I like to think that that you know we live in an era in which the time from the first powered flight in 1903 to the time human beings first stood on the moon. In 1969, but 66 years that's just extraordinary what was accomplished in that time. And that just framed the explosion of other invention that, that emerged in the, in the 20th century and now we've seen a good bit of that in the 21st century and, the scary question is raised. So, is that it? Have the ideas been taken? And if they haven't, what's the next great one? Okay, that's couple questions in there. Yeah. But you know, I think the, the progression from powered flight to getting on the moon. Is an interesting example for a couple of reasons. Mm- hm. One is yes, it was very fast and about the same amount of time has passed since we've done that. And not as much has obviously happened with Space Flight. Right. And so it's an example that is interesting for two reasons. One is it shows power of solving big problems by having a large demand. Right. So, there is a huge im, imperative that created a lot of demand supported by the US government predominantly, but also the Soviet government at the time. Mm- hm. To solve this space problem, and it created a furious pace of innovation. Furious and when I mean innovation, it's not just invention. It's testing the invention, rejecting the inventions that don't work, coming up with a new one. Really deploying the solutions, not just. Right. Thinking about them, and that caused an incredibly fast pace. Since then, there hasn't been as much of an imperative to say go to Mars. Right. So although there's a lot of invention happening in the world, it's not happening there, okay? Cuz the demand isn't there, and these are very hard inventions to do right? Where I see clear demand although I think personally the vision of going to Mars is pretty cool. I'm not so interested in the one- way ticket concept, you know? [ LAUGH ] Yeah. Nor, nor am I. But you know, the, the concept now that there are areas of very high demand. You know, the elder care issue is a very high demand issue. Entire country see that with diminishing population and increasing chronic disease. That they will bankrupt themselves very soon, if not something big happening. Same sort of thing I see in China with air quality, water quality, food quality. These are big problems they're seeing were, you know, people are dying day after day and they have to solve this problem. And they can't solve the problem with the systems we put into place in the last hundred years. Their problem is quantitatively and qualitatively different. So, the demand is there for problems of that kind, and consequently I'm seeing a lot of innovation go there. Now clearly, there is also demand in things like the [ UNKNOWN ] market and so on for the next Instagram and the next Twitter or [ UNKNOWN ] talk what have you, and those will also drive a lot of innovation. They're the ones that I'm still interested in wearing my ecap, but Kurt in wearing my humanity hat these are the ones that I really think are powerful questions that we need to address. You know, how do we feed ourselves such a fundamental thing. Right. And you know, we have not invented our way out of that problem. How do we urbanize effectively? How do we solve transportation problems which are maybe more convenient than how do feed Africa? Right. Or how do we stop infectious disease from wiping out half of humanity? You know, these are big problems. Right. And I think those are the areas to me that are very fascinating to go address. And you mentioned also in some of your other talks the idea of an aging population being. A, a real drive for it that's created a certain urgency, and it, it, when you say that, do you mean specifically, in terms of medical care and, and providing for people? Yes, and I think we have to really rethink that whole problem. So, again, we're sitting on top of a medical system that's developed over the last 100 years. That really about finding therapies that just fix a disease. Mm- hm. Okay. Unfortunately the diseases, diseases that remain, particularly as you age, are not ones you can just fix with a pill. Right. Okay, they require long term management, long term inter, interventions, lots of different kinds of I think, social aspects of keeping people healthy. And this is a very different way of reimagining health. Pharmaceuticals are a part of it but by no means are they all of it. Actually, I think most of the activity has to happen in other areas. You know, one example is here in Singapore I, I worked with a few people thinking about how do you keep people productively employed. Mm- hm. You know, after they're 70 or 80 years old. Right. And you can't do it by putting them in an office for nine to five. Yeah. That's A, a violation of their social contract. Yeah. But B, it's just, they're at the point where they're not particularly good at that kind of work. Right. But there's other kind of things that they can be very very good at. And we just don't have the infrastructure to harness them to do it. Right. You know in the last 40 or 50 years, and I was involved in part of this revolution, the productivity of the office worker went up by order of magnitude, because we gave them computers and telecommunication devices, and all these sort of things. And if you pick one of those up, any of those devices up, it's very hard for an 80 year old to use them. Sure. So, that entire revolution of the last four decades has passed by the elderly. But, if we focused on trying to build systems for them, I think we would find a lot of additional productivity in there that they could do from a time to time, part time basis, and add some value back into the economy, which is part of the equation of how to make it all work out. When you have an elderly population that is expensive to maintain. So, you think that we could, we could invent devices that have a different kind of interface and that have a different kind of software underneath? Well, any different kind of business. You know, so one of the examples I'd come up with is, you know, you have a public park. Mm- hm. It's instrumented with camera's. Right. You know, a person who is retired at any time, can just scan a bunch of these cameras and see if a crime is taking place. And, you know, if there's thousands of people doing it at any given time, just statistically, and a bunch of them report a crime happening then probably there is something happening. Right. And so this kind of thing is a way of adding value to society. Right. It's ways that they can take care of their own health. Mm- hm. Maybe they get entered into a lotto. Right. Because it, it benefits society if they're taking care of their own health. Sure. Or taking care of other elderly who have similar conditions. Right. You just have to rethink and reimagine the way that people can add pro, productivity and value into society. Right. That's different from kind of the forty or fifty year history of how we've defined productivity. Right. As something we pay you money for. Right. Going back, a little bit to what you do particularly and your company does. It's not just the idea of finding and implementing patents. It's the idea of developing good marriages among patents. The idea of developing and ecosystem within the cluster of patents. These five things as stand alone innovations are perfectly fine. These five things working together are exponentially more powerful. What's that like? How can you stand back and look at wall of patents and say these are the ones that I think can make a difference? I think it, probably look at it in the opposite direction. We first look at the problem that needs to be solved. Then you look at the high risk areas of that problem. Those are the ones we accept the highest risk of failure, after trying lots of different things. Then you look at the lower risk areas. Maybe that's where IP already exists. And you kind of go find out. But your start top down. It's like, you know, architecting a building. You don't architect a building by finding, like, spare parts. [ UNKNOWN ] in a, in a junkyard and putting together your building, at least, hopefully, not in any building I live in. [ LAUGH ] But you start from the beginning. Right. And you work your way from the big picture of what you want to build to the individual pieces, that all the way go down to concrete and rebar and Right. And maybe pieces of art you want to put into it. And then you can go look and see who can help you with those pieces. Now unlike the building, most of the pieces we're trying to build we don't know how to build. So, you have to take greater risk and you have to put incentives for people to take risk. So in many cases we work with inventors. We tell them, look, we'll pay you for your invention but mostly we're gonna give you profit sharing. So, if your invention makes a lot of money, you can make a lot of money too. We've had inventors make, you know, dozens of millions of dollars from their inventions. Which means they don't have to go to a start up. They can actually just be an inventor. Right. Because we can find other people who are good at doing start ups or they're multi nationals who are looking to get new ideas. They're good at doing that. Right. And pair them up with these people who just wanted, do good at inventing? Yeah. and, likewise we do that with government and research labs and so on. Just set these incentives for they can, so they can do what they're good at. Mm- hm. Focus on that part. And then give them kind of a blue print for what areas are most important to work on. Now we've spoken all of these panels have touched on the idea of, of, education. I know you're kids are mostly grown but if you had. Two young children starting in school today and you are able to, to tell the administrators this is the kind of education I want my kids to have. What would you do differently if it were up to you? That's a great question. I, I think, I mean there's many things, but maybe the top one is just get them exposed more. You know I've though, travelling would be great. I think, you know kids, if they go see what's happening in Ethiopia, they get a very quick picture of what the problems are there. And they never see that problem or they never really understand it, but watching it on television right. Yeah. They can get a sense of it, but when you talk to people who are living in it, then you really understand it. I also think we probably we protect our kids from complex ideas to much. Uh- hm. I think great scientists, and researchers and engineers are good at explaining their work in a simple way. You know the Ted Talks have been very useful to expose a whole new population of people to sophisticated concepts, but typically kids aren't. You know, we decide that we're going to teach them very basic things before complicated things. In computers, long ago, to master a computer you had to know everything, from the chip on way up. But, the great thing about high level programming languages is it insulated people from having to know all of that, which meant kids could program. Right. But, we haven't done that for biology, as an example. Right? I mean, a kid can operate a DNA sequencer, I've proven that. And they can actually do a lot of work at that level, without having to know all the biochemistry down to the bottom. Right. I'm not saying they'll be replicating exactly what a Nobel Prize winning researcher can do. Right. But, there's a lot of work to exploring space that could be done, with instrumentation in a higher level kind of. Programming like concepts. Right. And we don't expose kids to that enough, I think. Right. So exposure generally. Exposure. And what do you think it takes to, and we're short of time. I have a couple of, of quick questions. We always hope that the pace of innovation will accelerate, not just the quality of innovation, but the pace of innovation will accelerate and we all see just as we're seeing in space that it slows down so in areas we understand why innovation in space has not moved as well as it can, but in general, what is it that it would take to turbo charge. Innovation in any one area and what is it that you see that you coud remove from the equation that's slowing it down? Well, I, I think I, I tell all governments the thing that could turbo charge it is demand. Mm- hm. Today the demand that's implicit in that you can start up a company, do a great. Social application on the internet. And get an IPO in 18 months. That, that is a very powerful motivator for people to invent in the area. But, we don't see the demand side for a lot of these other things. And I think governments can be part of the solution to create demand for things, to create rewards for solving these kinds of problems, which would harness a lot of innovation and get it toward deployment. Right. I talked to companies, multi- national companies that have multi- billion dollar RND budgets, but they're afraid to come up with something too innovative because they think it won't sell. Right? But, if there is demand at the other end, I mean it's kind of like nobody would have created a component of the Apollo Moon, lander. If they didn't think the government was gonna pay for it at the other end. Right. And sim, similarly, and those were big, multi- national companies of their time. Bu, t similarly, large, multi- national companies today, which have lots of money, are risk- adverse cuz they don't know who's gonna have the demand to put their piece together with other pieces to make it work. And I think that would turbo charge a tremendous amount of innovation. I know it's important to, to expend effort on the early stage. Mm- hm. But I, I see lots of early stage in letters. I think the problem is how to get their stuff deployed in a, in a meaningful way. And lastly, what is it, that keeps you up at night? And, on the other hand assuming you do get to sleep at night, what is it that makes you excited to get out of bed in the morning. I'm excited to get out of bed every morning, cuz there are so many problems to solve. And I'm so far away from finding all the people to help me to solve them. That I, you know, hope on a plane. And I travel every three or four days to go to someplace where I can. Find governments or researchers or inventors or somebody. Mm- hm. To help solve these big problems. Big mission to solve those problems. What keeps me up at night? I'm pretty much up all night anyway. [ LAUGH ] So, the thing is. It's that jet lag from all that traveling. Yeah, yeah, yeah, fortunately, I don't have jet lag. But I think the problem is. That, that keeps me up at night is I don't think governments are paying, playing the role that they could in turbocharging this innovation. They used to a long time ago. They largely stepped out of that role when multinational corporations rose in prominence. Right. And, and in economics. But, because of things like public markets and a bunch of other things. Those kinda companies don't invest in the long term so much anymore. There's very few [ INAUDIBLE ] in the world that are really built on ideas. And so I think you need to find a way to have governments not step in the way of those [ INAUDIBLE ] but give them the incentives that they need to tell their shareholders yes I'm working on a ten year project, why, well because the government's gonna back me on this in governments you can trust over ten years, right? That's the missing piece, that I think governments could easily step back into that role. And it's very much needed where you, whether you think of pharmaceuticals, or you think of things like solving the elder care problem. Right. And it may be one of the reasons that we see the U. S. in particular sometimes having problems with this, because when. Ideology gets in the way, when partisan politics get in the way, protocols, and, and priorities change all the time, as opposed to in the days of the Apollo program, when people said whatever your party is, we have determined, we're going to the moon. And nothing's getting in the way. Yeah. I have to say that's particularly frustrating when actually, in partisan politics both sides agree that it's a good idea. Yeah. To solve problems like say elder care, or right Or efficient agriculture, but they don't because they're just deciding that they want to fight for no good reason. Yeah. I think this is an opportunity for other countries to really step up, and maybe adopt that role, you know the United States dominated invention and the economics invention for 150 years, clearly that's not going to happen for the next 150 years, so I think some countries need to break from the, from outside the box of how countries do innovation and try something different, and maybe by so doing, succeed very well. Terrific. Well, we just hit quadruple zeros here so I am afraid we're going to have to bring this to an end. I thank you for coming with us Thank you. I say to our audience again please tweet out your ideas, # TIMEinventions and Edward thank you so much for being with us today. Thank you. It's been a real privilege. My pleasure. And, I'd like to bring out my colleague, once again, Hannah Beech for a few closing remarks. So, in watching, Hannah's panel and in listening to the folks that, that I was speaking with, I had some thoughts about what I think my take- aways are, and perhaps other people will agree or will have different ideas. Speaking with Keshor it occurred to me that human beings wherever we are on the planet we all have the same primal needs, food, shelter, health care, education for our kids, a safe environment for, for all of us to grow up. But, for nearly the entirety of human existence we lived in silos. So, what happened in my tribe, in my community, in my country had very little bearing on yours and if I was doing well, I didn't necessarily care as much about what happened elsewhere in the world, and vice versa in all directions. Globalization has changed all that. We really are living in a world now, in which we're going to thrive or die together, and we saw that in 2009 with the, the global economic crash. There was a time when we had insulated ourselves from the economies of the rest of the world. All of us had done this sufficiently so that we could do well even. Then if the rest of the world is crashing. Not so much anymore. Keyshore, I think, is it reminded us that one way that interdependence is a very good thing is that by demolishing those cultural and economic and inventive boundaries, we're all forced to create for the world. We're all forced, we're incentivized. Is to look at what will work in my culture will also work in other cultures. If another company is inventing for the world and I'm inventing locally which company do you think is going to do better? So, I think the time has past when we can think locally at least for an inventor who wants to create a product. That's not just good egalitarian thinking. It's good economics, and it's not always that you see those two imperatives work together so nicely. If I can pick up and just talk about our panel. One of things that really struck me that are panel have talked about was the spurs of innovation. Which are think are very different from five, ten, 15 years ago. One of the things that they talked about that isn't different i the issue of timing. You don't wanna get there too early or, God forbid, too fast. The second is, as Jeffrey mentioned, of a globalized society, of learning from the strengths and perspectives of different cultures, to be mentioned. The for instance that the fact that we're all connected by Skype which is an Estonian based technology. And I think the third is apropos of where we are today, which is Asia and the importance that institutions here, and governments here have placed on spurring innovation, but also having a fast growing young population that isn't bound by the conventions that we, others might be in terms of the way that they think about technology and the possibility of leapfrogging technologies because everything is new, everything is exciting. And so, that's important to the idea of bringing new ideas and, and converting them to a patentable, usable market reality. And finally on, Edward Jones panel. In some ways this builds very directly on, on all of the work that all of the other folks here have done. As I said when, when he and I were speaking, patents are very much the fruits of inventiveness. And like all fruit they languish. They rot when they spend too much time on a shelf, or too much time on the vine. Finding ways not just to implement but to integrate those patents is the best way to get the most of out of them. To get them off the shelf where they're simply prized product of someone's thinking but are doing no good. And instead out in a place that they can change the world. Edward's gift for finding, for collecting, for collating and working on ways to create the particular chemistry that make these products work. Is I think where his, his genius lives. To mix my metaphors slightly, someone who does the work he does is a little like a publisher. The kind of publisher who can find the perfect manuscript, who can found the lyrical collection of poems and can say this has already spend too much time in someone's drawer. And it's time to publish it, to bring it to the world. Patents are the fruits of the work of inventors in the same way that good literature is the fruits of the work of writers, and I thank Edward for bringing it out there and getting it to us. I also want to say that speaking of collaboration as a closing remark. Our work with Qualcomm both on our issue on the poll, and on, on the event today is a perfect example of how groups, how organizations with similar goals, similar ideas, coming at them from different directions can work together to produce something terrific. I wanna thank once more ,. Julie Welch, I want to thank Dawn Nadow and everyone else who worked to make this happen, and thank our audience for being here, and our audience at time. com, this will continue to be available on time. come, at time. com / inventions, and we will continue to be loving tweets at # timeinventions. 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