--- title: Interview: Inventing Globally | TIME description: TIME Editor-at-Large, Jeffrey Kluger sits down with Kishore Mahbubani, Professor and Dean at Lee Kuan Yew School of Public Policy at National University Singapore to explore the inter-connected nature of inventing in a global landscape. canonical: https://time.com/video/jYcUi9qP/ og:title: Interview: Inventing Globally og:description: TIME Editor-at-Large, Jeffrey Kluger sits down with Kishore Mahbubani, Professor and Dean at Lee Kuan Yew School of Public Policy at National University Singapore to explore the inter-connected nature of inventing in a global landscape. og:url: https://time.com/video/jYcUi9qP/ og:image: https://cdn.jwplayer.com/v2/media/jYcUi9qP/poster.jpg?width=720 og:type: video.other twitter:card: summary_large_image twitter:title: Interview: Inventing Globally twitter:description: TIME Editor-at-Large, Jeffrey Kluger sits down with Kishore Mahbubani, Professor and Dean at Lee Kuan Yew School of Public Policy at National University Singapore to explore the inter-connected nature of inventing in a global landscape. twitter:image: https://cdn.jwplayer.com/v2/media/jYcUi9qP/poster.jpg?width=720 --- # Interview: Inventing Globally > Sponsored content. 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They are at time.com/newsletters and are separate from a paid subscription. ## Video: Interview: Inventing Globally [Watch (HLS stream): Interview: Inventing Globally](https://cdn.jwplayer.com/manifests/jYcUi9qP.m3u8) (24:07)  _Published 2014-05-30. TIME Editor-at-Large, Jeffrey Kluger sits down with Kishore Mahbubani, Professor and Dean at Lee Kuan Yew School of Public Policy at National University Singapore to explore the inter-connected nature of inventing in a global landscape._ --- Jul 27, 2023 4:43 PM UTC --- ## More From This Series [All Videos](https://time.com/video/) [Interview: Inventing Ecosystems & Conclusion](/video/jik1xZxE/) ### Interview: Inventing Ecosystems & Conclusion [The Best Inventions of 2013](/video/2dst8HeQ/) ### The Best Inventions of 2013 [TIME Explains: Mars, with Jeffrey Kluger](/video/5wSa3koN/) ### TIME Explains: Mars, with Jeffrey Kluger --- ## Transcript [ UNKNOWN ] It took me a few minutes to edit down Professor Mobubani various credits. And if I were to list them, we would have to order in data later. So I will try to get them as brief as possible. Professor Marbabati is the Dean of public policy at the National University of Singapore, from 1971 to 2004, he was with the Singapore foreign service and from 2001 to 2002, he was president to the United Nations Security Council. He's the author of multiple books including most recently The Great Convergence which has been named by numerous newspapers as one of the best books of it's kind of the year. This morning Professor Mahbubani and I are going to be talking about the challenge of global, of inventing globally. And I wanna begin with something fundamental, which is just what does that mean? How is inventing globally different from inventing for your country, or your city, or even for your small village? Can you give us a little sense of what it is that term means? Well, I think it shows that we live in a different time. I say in my latest book, The Great Convergence, and before, when 7 billion people live in 193 separate countries, it was as though they were living in 193 separate boats. Now the 7 billion people no longer live in 193 separate boats, they live in 193 separate cabins, on the same boat. But the, what you live there for is in a world which is deeply interconnected. Almost all the major global developments, global financial crisis, the global pandemics, global warming show that we are on the same boat. And I think that when it comes to inventions, we're on the same boat, too. The, the rising middle class in Asia has been seen, and you have written about this as a huge engine for global growth. Yeah. What about that? Let's stay with that, the various cabins on the various boats. Some cabins are getting wealthier some cabins are moving out of poverty, some cabins are already very wealthy, and some are still struggling. So how does Asia in particular -. And the rise of it's middle class -. Yes. Help everyone aboard the vessel. Well I think, this is gonna be Asia's moment in history, and let me just give you one statistic on the middle class, okay. In 2010 in all of Asia from west Asia to east Asia. The total size of the Asian middle class was 500 million people, a big sum. But by 2020, which is only six years from now, that number is going to explode from 500 million to 1. 75 billion, an increase of three and a half times in ten years. The world has seen nothing like this. Let me tell you why that is important. If you look at the history of invention. We, we think of inventions as an individual enterprise. But actually, inventions and inventiveness is effected by the time and place that you live in. And we'll give you two contrasting examples. In the 11th century, Europe was in the dark ages, and the most creative societies were the Arab societies [ UNKNOWN ] Khalifas. FAst forward 4- 500 years, you have the Italian Renaissance and Europe becomes creative, and Arab societies decline. This is what you're gonna see in Asia today. You're gonna see a massive Asian cultural renaissance happen in the next 20 years. So it's perfectly natural that this is accompanied by a wave of inventiveness that will transform the world from Asia. Well, and yet you raise a good point. The idea that in the past at least. Hm. The rise of one sector in the world. Hm. Seemed to be a zero sum game. Hm. With every. Hm. Percentage of GDP growth in. The, in the middle east. Having to be accompanied by a loss of growth in Europe and in else, and elsewhere. Clearly this doesn't have to be the case anymore. Or does it? Why is it now that we won't have to worry about the collapse of, say, the European Union as Asia rises as a power. Well let's hope there's no collapse in the European Union, and uh- [ LAUGH ] That's not going to happen, of course. I, by the way, I am basically bullish about North America and Europe recovering, from the global financial crisis completely. I must let you know, very bullish about it. And also, by the way, also bullish about parts of the world that people traditionally rich enough, like Africa. And I, for example, when you talk about inventions, it's actually stunning. That mobile telephone banking, Emphaser, came from Africa. It should have come from India. I mean, India has got this magnificent software industry magnificent pool of technical talents And yet, Africa beat India in mobile telephone banking. So that's a sign of how things. You get surprises like this happening. And I think, it's, it's very clear you're dead right when you say that it's not a zero- sum game anymore. Mm- hm. Because if you take the Internet, which is gonna provide the platform for global invention. And we're all linked in, linked into it globally. And so we, since we are all on the same platform, we'd be learning and working with each other as a result of that. So you won't be as you know, some game anymore. And if you see for example how talent goes from Silicone Valley to Bangalore, Bangalore to Silicon Valley, that cycle. That's an example of interdependence in the world too. What about those areas. You mention the internet. You mention mobile technology. These are things without which we can't imagine living. Now, by 2014, the idea of living without cell phone or living without the internet is like living without electric, lights, and a refrigerator. We just don't, don't think of a world without it. But 20 years ago, I didn't think I needed a cell phone. And I certainly didn't think I needed a working internet. Now, obviously, it's become essential. Those things always seem obvious in retrospect. Yeah. What about looking forward? What do you think are the next great aha moments. Is there an area for growth or several areas for growth? Well, I think you, you, you, you're actually right again about the cellphones. Let me give you a statistic that will surprise everybody. In 1995 China had less than 3 million cell phones. Today China has over a billion. In the year 2000 India had less than 3 million cell phones. Today it has close to one billion. And if you look at smartphones, un 2009 in all of Asia the total number of smart phones was roughly 70 to 80 million. Today, it's 800 million. In four years, you know, haven't you seen this incredible rise in numbers, like this, you know? That's happening the last 20, 30 years. So one point I make is that actually the last 30 years of human history, we have probably seen far greater change than the previous three hundred years. Now watch out for the next thirty years. In the next thirty years you'll see even greater change coming in. And a lot of it is going to be due to what I call connectivity. And you know with the smart phone nowadays, right? A smartphone is not just about telephoning you. A smartphone means that, and I shouldn't be doing this driving here, I can Google and find the top list of inventors in 30 seconds or less. That's amazing. Any kind of, any piece of information I need, anywhere in the world, I can get it in less than 30 seconds, just with a simple smartphone. And that, that kind of connectivity, I think, is going to provide the platform, for the next wave of inventions, that are coming. Taking that idea and focusing specifically on Asia, for a moment. Clearly, simply the power of the, the size of the Asian population. The growth of the Asian population makes it, gives it a great deal of throw weight. What happens in Asia affects the world. It's very different from other parts of the world that are more sparsely populated. But obviously Asia has more than just numbers going for it. Asia has, you only have to look at a, at, at, at a country like Singapore, or a Japan, or China. And see where innovation is going, where true imagination is happening. So, in what areas do you see Asia starting to lead the world, not just in its power to influence markets, because of its huge consumer base, but also because of the ideas that are percolating up out of Asia. Yeah. Well, I think the, let me give you one of the surprising areas. I mean was recently speaking in a panel in Hong Kong. And together with me, actually, was a consultant, from Europe who works on the Chinese internet. And I don't speak Chinese, unfortunately. I wish I did. But he said that what's happening in the Chinese internet world, is far more exciting than what's happening in the rest of the world. They're far more innovative and far quicker in changes over there. Not try to speak about it any authority he gave examples, he told stories. And they are very powerful stories about what's happening in China. That's surprising because you see, in theory, China is a closed political society. It's still run by the communist party of China. How is it, in a closed political system, you have this incredibly innovative internet world that is emerging? That's the kind of paradox and surprising development is happening. The other thing you'll notice about Asia is that in all of the inventions be what I call collaborative invention. Now we all know the Apple story, and I am a great admirer of Steve Jobs and how he recovered after having been smashed down he came back up and created one of the world's best companies, right? Great Story. Now theres another company that that's competing, reasonably successfully with Apple. There is Samsung, do you know any persons whose name is associated with Samsung? No, that's a good point. Exactly! You dont even know which any one individual associated with Samsung, but it's done such a remarkable job producing smartphones, tablets and all that. They can compete with Apple. Right. In the same way, I mean if you take cars for example, right, we want to traditionally again, it was Americans and Europeans that used to dominate the car industry, but again the collaborative invention of the Koreans and Japanese. In the car industry means for example today. One, I made a mistake of buying a Buick once, you know? [ LAUGH ] in 1982. That was a bad year for a Buick. Yeah. 1980 after that I was going to a garage every 3 months or every 2 months. I said I'm never ever gonna buy it anymore, an American car. And I then brought Lexus Kay. For ten years I never once went to the garage, ten years, not once. That's amazing. That's a kind of collaborated invention that create a product that you don't associate with any particular individual, but obviously it's the team work that is designed to achieve remarkable products. So, you know, as we move hopefully towards a world where you have more electric cars, driverless cars and so on, so forth. Sure, some of the innovation will come from America and Europe, but I think Asians will do that too. Well, and you actually your answer is very prescient because my next question was going to be, and it still will be, but I'm going to modify it a little bit. I was going to ask you, who do you think is the worlds greatest icon or role model for invention. But you bring up a very good point about the idea of the single charismatic inventor. And America has a great history of that, there's Thomas Edison, there's Henry Ford, there were the Wright brothers, there's Steve Jobs. Mm, yeah. Even now, even now, in a globally connected world, you speak of electric cars, Elon Musk. Mm. Yeah. You speak of private space travel, again, Elon Musk. Yeah. With SpaceX, is there something about America or certain cultures, do you think? Mm. That seem to call out for. A single, dramatic central figure as an inventor as opposed to Asia, that doesn't necessarily need that poster man or poster woman for creativity. I, I think it's pretty clear that there are cultural differences within American society and Asian societies, and I think. America's great strength, is it's emphasis on individual achievements. And I think that's a great strength of America, which it should exploit and develop and so on, so forth. And of course the Asians as you know, culturally are much more collaborative. Right. And, and work together as a society or in groups, and in fact sort of insen, implicitly discouraged individual from flourishing. I mean, even though times are changing. Okay? Right. But even, even in the United States. I mean, if you read what Thomas Edison wrote about his inventions, he said, I live. If I'm not mistaken he said something like, you know ,. I grew on the shoulders of other before me. Right. So there was a lot of work being done before him and then he step on their shoulders and he came up with the invention. Right. But a lot of work before him was also happened and similarly you take Elon Musk and Tesla car. I mean at first I know he didn't invent the battery. [ LAUGH ] He did not. You know what I mean, he took all these inventions and he put them together and he created this business model which basically made the Tesla viable. I actually, I actually sat in a Tesla in Norway. In Oslo, in February this year, the driver who came to fetch me drove a Tesla. He did? And he had this, car plugged in, into the airport car park so it was charging while he was waiting for me. But that requires a kind of ecosystem. Right. For the Tesla to survive, you know. Sure, wxactly. You know, Tesla on it's own is not going to survive. It's a question of, he's promised Elon Musk has promised you can drive the Tesla from New York to LA, right? Yeah. But to deliver that he's gotta get his charging stations and make sure that they are economically viable. Right. Yeah. All the way. And that's the business model they set to do, and I think, as far as I know, he's succeeding. Right, yeah. so the Tesla was a better ride than the 82 Buick? Oh yeah, much better [ LAUGH ]. One of your books was provocatively titled Can Asians Think and I can imagine your publisher saying, can we please think of another title. It is a title that gets people to stop and look at it and think about what you're saying. What, give me a sense of what you were saying there. Yeah. And was there much blowback for, for choosing a title like that? Well, fortunately for me you may not believe this but there's something called the International Conference on Thinking. And the International Conference on Thinking. It was held in Singapore. It moves around. Mm- hm. In 1998, I was asked to give one of the key note address. So I said the obvious question to us is, can nations think? And it's very obvious question to ask is, why is it from the year one to the year 1820? For 1, 800 of the last 2, 000 years, the two largest economies in the world, with about roughly 40 to 45 % of world GNP were China and India. How did China and India go away from having 45 % of the world GNP to the low point in 1950 it combined they had 2 to 3 % of the world GNP. How you collapse so catastrophically? So the question is, can Asians think? It's a pretty obvious question to ask. And I wanted to provoke my fellow Asians, because you know, I lived through the era of British colonial rule. And I can say something, which is also slightly provoked. That we were second class human beings. That we would never be as smart or as clever as the British. Now, today you realize, you go to California, you go to the University of California system, and when they admit the Freshman class, right, race blind. The Asian Americans make up 5 % of California's population. The freshman class of the University of California system is 40 % Asian American. That shows you that Asians can outperform when you put them on a level playing field but we didn't know that 1950s, we didn't know that 1960s, we didn't know that 1970s. So the purpose of my essay, can Asians think, was to get Asia to reflect on the question, what went wrong. And fortunately, as you know, today, if we go to any American universities. And my son, my son graduated from Carnegie Mellon, and you saw the list of PhDs of science and engineering walking up to the stage. The names will begin with Tan, Lee, Wong, or Kumar, Kapur, Kish, you know. And Tom Friedman says one day one David Moore will save the day, one Anglo- Saxon. But that's and example how times have changed. So the reason for my writings actually, is to force the Asians to become reflective of what went wrong. And that actually, I promise we didn't invent these questions together but almost every anser you've been giving leads directly into my next question. [ LAUGH ] So let's talk a little bit about education obviously you know that, that. The book that created a huge sensation in the U. S. a couple of years ago. The Battle Hymn of the Tiger Mom, which was a striking and controversial book. but, apart from any other message in that book there was a sense of the furious, and I mean that in a good way, mostly a good way. Asian focus, Chinese focus, on getting kids educated, on getting kids to pay attention. Is there something that not just parents in individual cultures can do but that we as a civilization with a, a new generation coming along. And maybe too, too late for me to become more inventive. But it's not too late for my children and for the children of everyone else in this room. What can we do for kids in schools all over the world now to foster that sense of inquisitiveness and creativity? Yeah. Well, I, I can, I can tell you, by the way, you know, I, I met Amy Chaw a couple times in Davos and in Yale and, and, and she's right. There's something about the culture ovation societies that leads to mothers pushing their children to study hard and, that's also one reason why then the Pizitz. Mm- hm. Is the schools in Singapore, Shanghai, so over in Japan and they do very well and very few schools in America do very well and the, PISA test. Right. But I, I think what Asians actually now beginning to realize that they, they still have to go back and learn from the United States when it comes to becoming creative. When it comes to becoming more questioning. So, for example, the Singapore school system is one of the most successful school systems in the entire world if you look in terms of results, okay? There were, there were some years for example. I was told that for the admitting class to Stanford University the number one high school that sends students to Standford was Palo Alto. The number two school was a school in Singapore, Rafer's Institution. Now that's a remarkable achievement right? Right. And yet despite these achievements the good thing is that they government. Has asked itself the question in Singapore. Why are Singapore's children so exam smart, but not life smart. Why aren't they becoming equally successful with all the As that they get? When they come to compete in the workplace, when they come to leadership, why aren't they successful? So Singapore actually is going through a process of reflection on what it needs to do with its education system. So, you know, just as, as, I certainly think that. Americans and Europeans can come to learn from Asia, the Asian's have to continue learning from America, Europe in the field of education. And that, it brings me to we have about another two minutes, but one of the things that I was going to say earlier and in an earlier version of my prepared remarks. I'm always struck by how the brain works because one of the reasons we're so creative when we're asleep is because the wildly creative, visual, auditory parts in the back of our brain. Wake up and the traffic comp in the front of the brain that says no that's a silly idea goes to sleep. So granted sometimes our dreams are pure gibberish and you need that traffica but other times good ideas come in a story in our dreams. You hear all kinds of stories of songs being created in their dreams. Is there something that we can do. In classrooms, to quiet that traffic cop a little bit. Yeah. Is there something teachers can do to say, we need focus, we need discipline but feel free to go a little crazy with your ideas and we'll dial them back later. Well, I'm glad, I'm glad you said that because I mean, it's a fact, the way, the way I prepare for a speech, even when I spoke. The ambassador to the United Nations before I would actually go to the United Nations I would lie down in my office couch, put an SIA what do you call, eyeshade on and lie down for 15 minutes, and then go through the speech in my head. Right. And then I'd go on the stage and speak for an hour without text. Right. So is that, I find that a very important part, of the creative process. Although, when I recommended to somebody else, another colleague, he did the same thing. He took the eyeshade, laid on the couch and fell asleep for an hour. So it, it depends on, on, on the individual. And, and, but, but you again, you are dead right that we. This is the biggest danger about the time that we live in today. We have too much information, too much data coming our way and it is our capacity to step back and to look at the data information from a distance that will enable us to become creative again. It's an important point and I'm sorry to cut this short on that point. We can go, go on with this for another hour or two. I wanna thank you so much Kishore for, for joining us today. Once again, I'd like to thank the folks following us on Time. com and again, feel free to have, to tweet out your thoughts, your ideas, your inspirations. At # TimeInventions and keep this conversation going. I'd now like to yield the stage to my colleague from Time, Hannah Beech, for the next session. Hannah is the East Asia Correspondent and Time Bureau Chief China Bureau Chief for Time works on features for us, both print and online. Hannah. 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