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They are at time.com/newsletters and are separate from a paid subscription. ## Video: Women And Success: Panel Discussion [Watch (HLS stream): Women And Success: Panel Discussion](https://cdn.jwplayer.com/manifests/bUJYz6y2.m3u8) (27:00)  _Published 2015-09-18. Women And Success: Panel Discussion_ --- Jul 27, 2023 6:49 PM UTC --- ## More From This Series [All Videos](https://time.com/video/) [Ambition Is Out](/video/oRzVU4XX/) ### Ambition Is Out [Women And Success: Samantha Power - Full Panel](/video/UVG9qR5p/) ### Women And Success: Samantha Power - Full Panel [The Future of Mobility: Expert Panel Discussion](/video/YfK7xBF0/) ### The Future of Mobility: Expert Panel Discussion --- ## Transcript So now for our panel. Quick introductions, although these women need no introductions, first we have Savannah Guthrie, who as you know, is the co- host of Today on NBC. She began her career in broadcasting at KMIZ in Columbia, Missouri. Got a law degree from Georgetown, practiced law for a while, went back to broadcast journalism, and joined NBC News in September 2007 as a legal analyst. In 2012, as most of you probably know, she became the co- anchor of Today. Margaret Jefferson is a professor of [ UNKNOWN ] Columbia University. She has taught You know, a few different places, The New School, NYU. She was a theater critic for the New York Times, where she won a Pulitzer Prize for criticism. And she is the author of Negroland, which is on your chairs, just came out a couple of weeks ago. I happen to know that it's doing quite well. And she will be signing her books for you, if you're interested afterwards, and you should all be interested, by the way. [ LAUGH ] And then, finally, Dina Powell, who is the head of Goldman Sachs' Impact Investing Business and the president of the Goldman Sachs Foundation. Dina had a long career in government before she came to Goldman Sachs. She was the Assistant Secretary of State For education and cultural affairs and the deputy under secretary of public affairs and public diplomacy under George W Bush. And she joined [ UNKNOWN ] in 2007. So a couple of short words about our poll. We polled as Nancy mentioned, Real Simple and Time, did our second annual poll. We polled a thousand men and women nation wide. We focus this year on the subject of ambition. And most women in our poll would say, they consider themselves at least some what ambition, that said almost 40 % think they don't have enough ambition. And when you looked at some of the statistics between men and women, it is clear that just the word ambition You know, it can be really loaded, particularly for women. So, I wanted to first ask you guys, ambition or ambitious. Are you ambitious? I would say no. Well, first of all, like Samantha, I feel that it's totally, I just hate the word. I think it's impolite. I don't like what it annotes at all. I don't know if it's because I had southern parents. I just all of those psychological issues that your pole reveals, I possess. << And yet, < And yet, Look at you. But I, but am I hard working? Yes, and I'm proud of that. And, I think I've been goal oriented. And, I, the one thing I would cop to being ambitious about is not failing. And, that is the only thing that has stuck with me from the beginning. I'm not ambitious to accomplish one thing or another. I'm ambitious to not fail at whatever is before me. And that fear of failure has been the thing that has driven me and I honestly, I gave a graduation speech a couple years ago and one of my big things was fear is good for you. Oh. And I don't know if that's actually a great message, so feel free to disregard it. [ LAUGH ] But fear has been good for me because it really kept me on my toes and I just wanted to make sure whether. I'm interviewing President Obama or Ambassador Pao or whoever that, no one will be more prepared, I will not ask a question that I cannot back up with facts. All of that is all driven by fear of failure. And do you have that at every stage of your life? At your job, at school. Once I, I was kind of a high school slacker, like I had all Cs, I mean I got suspended for ditching class, which is ironic. But so, at the point I started caring, and started to get a little interested in what I could do with life, then yes, I think so. At first I just was just kind of fun, I never really tried that hard before and it was fun to discover. Wow, maybe I can write, maybe I can do this or that, and I feel my whole life so far has just been unfolding of a little bit, discovering what I can do and then as I kind of pursue that and allow myself to. Take it out for a test drive then making sure that I don't fail and that's sort of the psychology of it. I don't know how that answers your ambition question but that's what drives me. Okay, wait. I'm sorry, hold that thought. As your job has become more public, you have a very public job. Do you think that intensifies the fear? Because there's so many eyes on you? I think in some sense, yes. I mean, the one good thing, I feel a little bit that I live and inhabit this paradox because on the one hand I've just described this neurotic person who's totally afraid of failure, but at the same time I feel very strong and solid and confident about Who I am. So, you have to have that foundation if you're going to go out in the world, and put yourself out there every single day. Whether it's to ask a hard question, or to interview a celebrity. Or, whatever it is. So, yes, I feel that scrutiny. Of course I'm petrified. I don't want to fail. I don't want to be a failure at this job. I don't want to be a flop. But on the other hand, I know who I am, and I know I will be okay no matter what. And that is something that, I am so happy. I think you have to be 43 years old and have had a couple failures to just realize that you'll be okay. You'll survive. Yeah. So it is more intense but I'm simultaneously, I feel like, have the personally wherewithal to handle And I always think it's going to be around the corner. I mean, my boss is here, she knows this about me. [ LAUGH ] I'm like, what do you want? And she's just like, no I was just gonna tell you about a meeting next week. I'm like, really? That's it? [ LAUGH ] But I'm ready for anything. Okay, so Margo. Yes. Ambitious, are you ambitious, do you say, I am ambitious? I have to admit, [ INAUDIBLE ], I am ambitious. I have some of the same problems with it that Savannah described. And when I think back as to why. Ambition, you know, the aura, the connotation, greed, ruthlessness. Right, but okay, so that's weird. Right? So, and the way I was raised, you were to excel. You were to succeed at worthy goals. You were to be perfect. [ LAUGH ] In fact. Those, they're cleaner, they're more ethical at least ostensibly But do you think ambition means Morally than quote ambition So does it mean greed It does not have to And is it for men and women do you think? I think that's very much the kind of Masculine mythology that surrounds it. It's in movies, it's in books, the drive, [ SOUND ], the success. [ LAUGH ] It's everywhere. No. You don't have to be. But, you know the only thing I grew up, I didn't finish that sentence but I will, was Again this was a kinda moral, ethical screen placed around you. Both my parents, the message they were sending was, again, compete. Get wonderful grades, be an outstanding actress, pianist, writer, all of these things. But they would always say. Don't compete with others, compete with only yourself. [ LAUGH ] Which again, makes it very clean. I'm the generation of women that entered, galvanized by feminism, the job market. Started going to law school in all mass, business school, I entered journalist and I started NEWSWEEK in 1973 and women had just brought a suit. That's why we got hired and promoted, threaten to sue. We knew nothing about, ambition is a form of training in the world. In the corporate world, in universities. Young boys are trained in the ways and strategies of ambition as it means rising, we go through an institution. We knew nothing about that and in many ways we disdained a lot of the necessities, a lot of the things you were supposed to do. So you think boys were trained in ambition in a way that girls weren't. Do you think that's still true today? Absolutely, yes I do. Not nearly as much, but yes I do. My young women students are often Yeah, I want to be, I'm gonna be a writer, I'm gonna teach writing, I'm gonna be a writer, I'm gonna be an artist. But by the way, it's always easier, culturally for women to say, it always has been hasn't it. I'm going to be a writer, I'm gonna be an artist, anything that is kind of esthetically circled round is okay for us. I'm going to be a performer. But my It's not so unusual, I teach at Columbia, to be in a classroom of very, very smart women. Let's say there are 14 women, 4 guys. Suddenly the guys are taking up all the airspace [ LAUGH ] in the room. May I call on somebody else? [ LAUGH ] John That was very interesting what you just, Lana said. [ LAUGH ] It's always going to be, virtually always going to be a very smart girl who says, I know this may sound stupid, but, I can hear this yes. Okay, so can we all agree tonight, I'm also blinded a little bit like. I know the lights are. Can we all like make a pact that we're not gonna say I know this may sound stupid anyway. Okay, no beginning a question with that. Especially letting your voice go a little high. Because then a guy will ask a question and it's just as stupid, and he doesn't say that part. No, that's exactly right. Sorry guys in the room. Which is again, a form of a kind of confidence training, which is connected to acting out, performing ambition in a workplace. Okay, so Dana. Do you describe yourself as ambitious? I'm also curious to know, you know, you work in an environment that's very different from Argos, for example. What you see in men and women in the financial world and in government when you worked in government. Something is buzzing. I don't know, yeah, it's ringing. Something's ringing. Well actually, it's funny what Savannah said about fear. I hate to admit that I think a big motivator for me has been guild and I have a theory about immigrant guilt like Samantha, I'm an immigrant to this country from Egypt. My family left Cairo when I was a young girl and my parents who, my father didn't speak English. I didn't speak English. My sister didn't speak English. My mother, who graduated from the American University in Cairo. Was the only one who spoke English. And, we moved to Dallas, Texas. Not the friendliest city at that time to be a Arab speaking immigrant. And, what I remember was in ways. Small, big, direct, and indirect. My parents used to say to me, you know, Dina, and then my sister Dalia, and then they had a girl Denise in Dallas. So there were three of us. You know Dina, Dalia, and Denise. [ LAUGH ] We left our homeland. Our family behind, our home, everything that mattered to us, just for you. [ LAUGH ] [ LAUGH ] So that you could achieve your potential. Who else has heard that? Cuz you're nodding. Immigrants in the room? No pressure. No pressure. No pressure Dina. No pressure, so I think that there is a sense that you have been given such a gift. And, that your parents and your family sacrificed so much so that you could achieve your dreams. What ever those may be. In the case of my dad, he would also add on. Anything you want to be, I am going to support, as long as your a doctor, a lawyer, or an engineer. [ LAUGH ] Which is also another common thing that's said. So when I got into government, he really didn't understand it. But I think that that is something, and while I think that's probably not a, I don't know if it's a good or a bad thing, I think it has. Had me define ambition a little bit, the way Samantha did. Which is, it's not so much about what level you reach, it's what impact you feel like you have made. You know. Did you use that lucky privilege to come to the United States, and. Have a good education and have these unique privileges in government to leave a legacy behind. Patty Sellers who started the Fortune Most Powerful Women summit rightly defines power as, did you leave a legacy behind? What was your legacy? And I think that is something that frankly a new generation of women, the millennial generation, I believe increasingly define it that way. But I think that there is also something going on around the world that we are winning in different countries to find ambition very, very differently and I will just tell you one story about a graduate of our 10, 000 women program. Will you give them a little [ UNKNOWN ] of what 10. 000 women is? Sure. So Goldman Sachs invested in a program called 10, 000 women about six years ago. At the time we were very proud. It was the largest investment in the economic empowerment of women, reaching 10, 000 female entrepreneurs around the world to help them grow their businesses. And I'm very proud to say we did reach the 10, 000 and we're now in a partnership with the World Bank and OPEC going to 100, 000 women in very difficult countries, Rwanda, Afghanistan, Egypt. And I remember when we started in Afghanistan, it was a very difficult time, obviously, and we weren't sure we'd find many females entrepreneurs. And there was this amazing woman, Rangina Hamidi, who ran a company called Kandahar Treasures. Kandahar is one of the most conservative provinces in the country, still sadly controlled by the Taliban and certainly was at that time. And Rangina found a way to go home to home, where women could not leave those homes and she would take beautiful things the women had made, handicrafts, jewelry, rugs, scarves. She would sell them and bring them back their proceeds. And I will never forget, in 2009, she told us a story about a woman who grabbed her hand at the door one day when Rangina came to give her her little bit of proceeds And she said, [ UNKNOWN ], my husband has never respected me. My husband has never asked my opinion on any matter, ever. And ever since I've been making a tiny bit of money, he's suddenly asking me questions. [ LAUGH ] Like the other day when he said I obviously do not care what you think. And I don't believe in educating girls, but we do have five daughters. Do you think we should send them to school? And Rangeena's telling us the story, and we said, oh my gosh, did she please, please, yes? She said no, she was not so stupid. She said to him, I have failed you because I haven't produced a son, and now you have to pay for five dowries when these girls are 12 years old. But if we force them to go to school, they can make an income and take care of you in your old age. [ LAUGH ] And sure enough, there was a long, pregnant pause. And the man said, yes, we will force them to go to school. [ LAUGH ] We will force them. Those girls, two of them have completed primary school and secondary school, which is nearly unheard of. And I tell that story because that woman Who will never read or write. Who will never leave her home was ambitious for her girls, for the next generation of her children. And that kind of ambition is something that I think is extraordinary and that we should celebrate. Do you think that expands and changes. The meaning. Right. All the connotations of the word exactly. And I'm thinking about the Debra Spark quote that somebody at the power mentioned about, she doesn't have any young women who come into her office anymore saying I'm really ambitious. They all say I'm entrepreneurial. Are they the same thing? I mean in your experience? In your experience it sounds like They're, at least with the woman you described, they're almost interchangeable. Right? She's an entrepreneurial woman, but she's also. Well, I don't know. Are they the same? I hope not. [ LAUGH ] Really, I do hope not. You go first. Well, I'll just. [ LAUGH ] [ LAUGH ] No, because it has to do with. With the program. With the program. Yeah. Well I don't, I'm, it could be that it's somehow a friendlier newer word. What I would say, entrepreneur to me, it describes this power of women, economically, which is how we've approached the issue. So I think that, in the last 20 years, the women's empower movement has gone from this issue being a justice issue and a human rights issue to being smart economics and I think that's where we are feeling this entrepreneurial because if women are seen as engines of growth and job creators, suddenly the men don't mind whether it's that story or in Saudi Arabia, but boy are the men happy when they work and produce. Income, so I think entrepreneurial is sort of about the economic power of women that is very hard to deny. Yes, and I think that's just fine, I just dont want it to. Be the same. Yes exactly, to supplant, one can say I'm ambitious for. Yeah, I'm ambitious to be an extraordinary artist. I'm ambitious to change the world in x or y way. Entrepreneurial doesn't, doesn't allow for those kinds of longings and drive. The word does not. So that's why I want them separate. Ok so. Savannah I have a question for you. So last night was the Republican debate which I'm sure despite your hours you probably had to watch anyway. Yes I stayed up late. So Carly Fiorina. Obviously super successful woman in business Do you think, and you were White House correspondent Mm- hm. So I'm sure you're watching this race as it develops with really unique perspective. When you look at her success in business and you look her presidential hopes, do you think that a woman in politics and a woman in business Do they have to demonstrate ambition differently? Does she have to act differently now? Or do you think you can take a business ambition and apply it across a political job? Well, that's an interesting question. I don't know enough about the corporate world. I may know a little bit about politics, I know about Journalism. I know about working in a corporate environment. I think the Presidential campaign is kind of its own animal. I don't think you can apply what you did before, how you acted because it requires such a weird kabuki dance of Attributes and behaviors so, I mean I do think that women who are in politics have a much more difficult time. I mean, even just in terms of their voices. And I feel like this, even with, and I mean their physical voices. I mean, how they sound. And this is something I have experienced on my own job, I mean I often wish I had a different sounding voice. Really? Yes. What is wrong with your voice? Well I think maybe my voice sounds A little bit like a girl, or isn't strong enough. Well you were a girl. Or maybe is too high. [ LAUGH ] And then sometimes, I find as the viewer or listener to a debate, or a politician whether it be Carly Fiorina or Hillary Clinton, there's something about women's voices that I think they have to They find themselves having to moderate. You will hear people say, oh, I just can't listen to her, so shrill. And I honestly, I know it seems like a shallow thing, but I feel like that is an extra hurdle that women have to contend with in terms of how they're putting themselves across. But I think in presidential, I'm kinda dodging your question, I think in presidential politics you have to look plenty ambitious. I mean, part of the reason I ask cuz I was having a conversation with a man today who watched the debate, and he said, do you think Carly Fiorina is warm enough to be president? [ LAUGH ] And This is my point. And I thought, huh. Well A would you ask that is she woman enough to the the CEO of a company, right? Is that a question one even asks, but will you ask that about a man? Well no, of course you wouldn't. And in fact, I had a similar experience with a colleague today who I respect very much who is male. And we were kinda taking Comparing notes about the, the debate and I said Carly if you read it, could lead a clinic on debating. I mean she's incredibly stellar. She has this razor tongue, I mean it's incredible. Just her ability at that. I don't know if I've ever seen anyone so good in that particular skill set. and he said, really? I don't think people are gonna like her. [ LAUGH ] And I was like, thought to myself, yeah because it's like, he doesn't want to listen to that. Some woman who is like, sharp and strong and, and I, this is not political, the commentary this is Yeah. Fully a commentary on her style and so I, I think for that reason that's this extra hurdle that women have to climb. Okay [ UNKNOWN ], I'm sorry Yeah, that's it So One question about likeability. So you look at your job, right? And, now I'm no broadcaster or some expert so this is a. Oh I did it. I said this is a stupid question. [ LAUGH ] Alright. So we're gonna forget about that rule, actually. But, so, I would assume part of your job success is to make viewers like you. Right? They watch the TV. They want to respect you, and trust you. But, they have to kind of like you and connect with you, and feel like, I want to watch the Today Show. Because I really like that Savannah Guthrie. Do you think, how can you, have you ever [ UNKNOWN ] that maybe the voice thing is part of those? Between, I need to be tough and I need to be smart, and I need to ask the hard questions, but I also need people to like me. Is that a fine line? Do women in all jobs walk that, do you think? And is that a particular challenge for, in someone in your job? Yes, I think it is. I certainly don't wake up and think I hope everyone likes me today. I just try to just be who I am, and this is kinda the thing I was talk, at this point in my life, either it's working for you or it isn't and that's fine. You don't have to like me but I can't change it. And on that show in particular because it's so It is so varied and you start with politics and you end like hugging Simon LeBon from Duran Duran. [ LAUGH ]. Which happened today. Yes I heard that there is a little obsession. Yes, fulfilling a 30 year old dream of mine but not, you know, you really cannot fake that, you just got to be who you are, so that is actually king of a relief. But, I do feel that I do scrutinize myself in terms of we have a lot of interaction on the show, and sometimes we have six people at a table, and I'm somebody who's very blabby and I always have something to see. And I do try to Moderate myself sometimes, but I don't know if that's because I'm a woman or because I'm just trying to have social skills. [ LAUGH ] Because who wants to be the first to admit you can't always have the lampshade on your head? But more significantly, there have been times, in terms of doing a political interview, and how I might do it on the Today Show is probably different than how I would do it on Meet the Press. Yeah, mm- hm. It is. Yeah. And part of that is because it's a different audience and The Today Show's more of a lay audience. Mm- hm. And Meet the Press, if people are watching that, they're wonks and that's what they're tuning in for. But part of is it also, I'm not gonna pull my punched. I'm still gonna try to ask the question I think is hard. The hardest question, the most challenging, the most probing. What's gonna draw out the strengths or weakness of an argument. But I do think about it. I don't wanna come off as shrill and horrible and wretched. I wanna come off as tough and fair and prepared. Yeah. And that's what I try to do. Well, try to be that, so that it appears that I am that. Yeah. [ LAUGH ] Which is actually just the key really. Yeah. Just go ahead and be that person and hopefully then you'll look like that. [ LAUGH ] Okay, in a minute I'm gonna open up for questions, one by one. My last question for you. So in your book, when you talk about your childhood, it's a lot about behavior and it's a lot about you need to grow up to be a lady. Right? You need to grow up to be a perfect, it was Negro in those days, then it became black, black lady who was also an honorable black woman. Both things were supposed to advance the race and Abolish, get rid of the negative stereotypes that have been attached to black women. Many of which had to do with, you know, you're loose, you're loud, you're slovenly, you're not capable of things we associate with being a lady. You know. Being gracious, manners, all the bourgeois accomplishments. Being a good mother- [ LAUGH ] even. Not being overly lusty, those sorts of things. And we were supposed to. Maybe the equivalent of immigrant guilt is, you are always supposed to be advancing the race. Mm- hm. And if you are a girl, becoming a woman. That means you are always advancing the reputation of the sex. I think you saw that with Obama's first campaign. If you go back, read all the articles, watch the television coverage. Especially initially until they began to love her, Michelle Obama, you can see these dramas all played out. She's a little hard. A little strident. Why is she sulking? Is she trying to be more powerful than he is, and all of these These, the kind of mean black woman. Stereotypes were hanging over her. And she had to find a way to maintain her character and yet dispel them, which was a performance, her version of the kinds of performances that you were talk- talking about, yeah. It also just strikes me, I want to say this, that so much of what women have to contend with is a set of shallow perception. You know, men flaunt their ambition, women are encourage to flaunt their bodies. 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