--- title: Amanda Nguyen and Kelley Robinson Say Joy Is Crucial to Ensuring an Equal Future | TIME description: For civil rights activists like Amanda Nguyen and Kelley Robinson, the road to a more equal future can be long and difficult. Two things crucial for getting there, they said in conversation with CNN anchor Abby Philip at Wednesday’s TIME100 Summit, are joy and math. canonical: https://time.com/video/X6j1p3fT/ og:title: Amanda Nguyen and Kelley Robinson Say Joy Is Crucial to Ensuring an Equal Future og:description: For civil rights activists like Amanda Nguyen and Kelley Robinson, the road to a more equal future can be long and difficult. Two things crucial for getting there, they said in conversation with CNN anchor Abby Philip at Wednesday’s TIME100 Summit, are joy and math. og:url: https://time.com/video/X6j1p3fT/ og:image: https://cdn.jwplayer.com/v2/media/X6j1p3fT/poster.jpg?width=720 og:type: video.other twitter:card: summary_large_image twitter:title: Amanda Nguyen and Kelley Robinson Say Joy Is Crucial to Ensuring an Equal Future twitter:description: For civil rights activists like Amanda Nguyen and Kelley Robinson, the road to a more equal future can be long and difficult. Two things crucial for getting there, they said in conversation with CNN anchor Abby Philip at Wednesday’s TIME100 Summit, are joy and math. twitter:image: https://cdn.jwplayer.com/v2/media/X6j1p3fT/poster.jpg?width=720 --- * U.S. # Amanda Nguyen and Kelley Robinson Say Joy Is Crucial to Ensuring an Equal Future > Sponsored content. Supplied in partnership with TIME. 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They are at time.com/newsletters and are separate from a paid subscription. ## Video: Amanda Nguyen and Kelley Robinson Say Joy Is Crucial to Ensuring an Equal Future [Watch (HLS stream): Amanda Nguyen and Kelley Robinson Say Joy Is Crucial to Ensuring an Equal Future](https://cdn.jwplayer.com/manifests/X6j1p3fT.m3u8) (17:19)  _Published 2024-04-24. For civil rights activists like Amanda Nguyen and Kelley Robinson, the road to a more equal future can be long and difficult. Two things crucial for getting there, they said in conversation with CNN anchor Abby Philip at Wednesday’s TIME100 Summit, are joy and math._ --- Apr 29, 2024 2:38 PM UTC --- ## More From This Series [All Videos](https://time.com/video/) [Kelley Robinson's 2024 TIME100 Gala Toast](/video/r99XM4S7/) ### Kelley Robinson's 2024 TIME100 Gala Toast [Amanda Nguyen on the Power of Her Voice as an Activist](/video/vnXtPg2M/) ### Amanda Nguyen on the Power of Her Voice as an Activist [Amanda Nguyen | TIME100 Talks](/video/dVuxLyEk/) ### Amanda Nguyen | TIME100 Talks --- ## Transcript Good evening to you. I'm so thrilled to be joined on the stage by two incredible activist in their own right? I'll start with Amanda New Year and who is a civil rights activist and also an astronaut. But the world got to know man. Because of her incredible activism as a Survivor herself out of her activism on behalf of sexual assault survivors as well. We are also joined on the stage by Kelly Robinson. She's the president of the Human Rights Campaign, which I know you And that organizations advocacy on behalf of lgbtq + individuals here in the United States great to be here. That's the theme of this panel is the art of advocacy and it does feel like we are in one of those moments where what advocacy is and what it looks like is changing. So for each of you, can you tell me when you think about what you want your personal advocacy to look like? What is the most important thing for you? Will have to say it's a joy. I think Joy is the most radical form of rebellion. And you know, when I met you today your energy so joyous even from your outfit, you know, but it was a radiating I think in a world where so many people are fighting and it is the fighting for the mere Act of existence whatever it is that they are trying to be that to have got joy in what you do and in the end stays that's me is my personal. Yes. I love that especially when you're talking about the contacts of the art of advocacy because so much of it is just an art figuring out how you get to change in the midst of the context that you find yourself living with in but the other part of it is math, right? Like how do you get to 50 + 1 how do you get to the majority of people understanding that the position that you're on is actually the one that's going to carry our nation Ford in to me. I think Joe is a critical component of it. The other piece I think about is Imagination, right? Like you are a genre busting person right up here right now, right like you got imagination and creativity for what building movement can look like I think about Beyonce right from country music to house moving. She shows us range and John were busting I think that we have to figure out at every step of our advocacy work. How do we bring the type of creativity into the space that make people where they are meet people in the spaces and places where they find joy and then uses that as a core point to kind of build a sort of Revolution that we need cuz at the end of the day, I feel like with my work is all about is making sure that every lesbian gay bi queer and trans person in this country can feel the same joy that they do at a Beyonce concert in every space in their lives. So how do we do that? We have to have an imagination for what change in structural reform looks like to get there with you for a second because you are working and operating in a space on I think one of the most controversial Shoes of our time right now, which is bizarre to say considering that, you know, there was a time when being gay was illegal in this country. These have been worse but it feels like the hand-to-hand combat when it comes to transgender people is as intense as ever right now. So when you are in and out because he stays that it's not just about raising awareness. It's not just about saying we are human too, but also combating active efforts to a pack trans people. What does that look like? Yeah, and I have to say I'm sorry spent the last thirteen years of my career working at Planned Parenthood Federation of America fighting for Reproductive Rights and abortion access in this country. And then I thank you. Yeah. Are you so another words? You've been you've been doing this for a while now. I'm not new to this. I'm sure these are not controversial issues about bodily autonomy. We talked about getting to love the person that you choose like those are not things are actually add to tationil in our context our environment. What's happening is that we've got a political landscape is trying to draw wedges between and I think one of the most transformative things about the lgbtq + movement is how far we've been able to move what where most people believe that the gay trans and queer people should be in the country, right? If you look 25 years ago. You got the Defense of Marriage Act being a law that in the land of basically banned same-sex marriage and now you got the respect for Marriage Act is the law of the land that codified into law and not only that you have the President Joe Biden office both voted for the Defense of Marriage Act and sign the respect for Marriage Act into law when I think about the power of this movement. It's a power to actually shift hearts and minds but also, Laws and policies in a relatively short time frame of the fight that we're in right now particularly what it means to Advocate and sent her trans and non-binary folks and folks of color in this fight is about understanding the what's happening to us is not new the same things are saying about trans people today. They said about gay and lesbian people 20 years ago. And now the laws have changed the same things are saying about trans people today. They said about people living with HIV and AIDS and now we're within Arm's Reach of ending the epidemic. I mean the same things I said about trans people today. They said about black women 100 years ago, and now you got me and used another time 100, okay. A dog so he can do this together. So what does what does mobilizing real we just got out of an AI conversation? What is mobilizing real people look like in 2024 because you do everybody right now is a keyboard Warrior, but some of this stuff requires real conversations face-to-face activities real work, you know in your work on sexual assault. The importance of showing up physically in a space and changing hearts and Minds. What is that look like, you know, I remember the first time that I try to talk to politicians and I stuck to statistics. No, I didn't want to reveal that. I was raped and these people this will date me, but they wouldn't look up from their BlackBerrys. Actually incredibly. I will stand in my truth and I will tell them about what happened to me and yeah their faces looked up from the blackberries, you know, I think that the reason why we were able to pass our bill unanimously and 84 laws bipartisan after that across the sexual assault survivors rights act as the law of the land in large part because of her. Thank you. Do you know it is because we were not afraid to stand in our authentic truth when the Massachusetts bill was up for a vote. I actually the night before I got a call and they said hey the speaker so I can bring it. So sorry your rights going to die. And there was other survivors that told me Amanda stand outside the floor of the house and let each and every one of those Representatives have to confront your face as I walk out and that day when I flew to Massachusetts, even our lead sponsor said Haley we're so sorry, you know, it may be next Wednesday cycle and for 12 hours that day we went door-to-door. We did that Grassroots organizing and I asked him to call in. I saw the phone ring in the speaker's office and at the end of the day the speaker brought it up for a vote and it passed unanimously to take that Relentless grit, but it does pay off. What's your take on that? Yeah. What's your take on it? I mean we were talking in the background when you listen to panels an AI. It feels like the opening scenes of Jurassic Park. Sometimes really don't guess what's going to happen. When you think about advocacy and Technology. It is allowed us to make our movements bigger and more expensive and also more intersectional that we could have ever imagined before, you know, I think about you know, the queer kid that's growing up in Missouri on like I came up and them knowing that they are not alone because they can connect with people outside of their space is transformative. The fears on the other side are also real the bullying and harassment take place online, but that's single point of what could be possible if you don't feel so alone because of the power social media is profound and I think what we try to do and I'm taking credit for us together maybe what part of organizing an advocacy tries to do is to want to make sure that we're bringing as many people to the table as possible and telling the whole experience around our issues, right? Not just one. Type of queer person not just one type of transfers in the folks that are low income folks that have disabilities folks that are folks of color like telling the whole story it allows us to do that. And then second piece is about making the world actually smaller and having one-on-one connections and relationships with people and as powerful as the internet is it sometimes gives us tools to really expand the message and create Humanity for folks at scale. We also have to be intimately focus on what it looks like to do storytelling there is nothing more powerful than someone telling their personal story about why they care about this issue why they are just as human as someone else do we still have to do that work and often especially in a world where there's misinformation and disinformation abounding. It's got to be done face-to-face in person person. And sometimes people need to be reminded at that. You can't just throw up a rainbow flag and call it a day. Not not every day is going to be that's going to be enough. I do Wonder Amanda and we were talking about this a little bit too. I think it was a journalist. I'm a student of History. You're an activist you ought to be too. I wonder what you drawn as you go about your advocacy today when you look at the successful civil rights work on a whole host of issues. What are the key things that you take away that you think still work right now? And if you want I don't want to limit you because I do think that there is there's room here for critique. Right? I'm going to ask you the same question are there things that we need to let go off AdvoCare you guys as advocates. We as a nation in those past movements that maybe the future movement needs to look a little bit different but I'll start a few Amanda important question, you know, when I think about the obvious and hate which a large part of my a.m. Is in it is true that if black lives matter didn't happen. He's in England happen and we have built this tradition of people taking their painful living shoes and channeling down to justice. So my activism is just joining that tradition, you know, I am I working my teams worked with built But honestly centuries of people who have been fighting for this and in terms of what I would like to see its growth within the activism Community. I think that so many people face burn out because their campaigns may be so difficult because sometimes there's a lack of a very clear call-to-action I guess was very helpful for our activism to be narrow in scope pass this bill and hopefully that will help other activists and shaping they're called faction. That's it. I just want a pause on that for a second because I think that's a really interesting and important observation. I'm curious tell me what you think about that then they went sometimes when when an active communities, there's a desire to think as big as possible and to have his expansive a goal as possible, but I'm kind of hearing you say many have those goals but have discrete actions Moments and that is more effective. Everybody can be an activist in their own term for us what has really helped combat that burn out is by having honestly campaign season write a fixed time where people come in with a very clear objective knowing that by the end of the several months without our past this and let's do cycle or we're going to have to start again and they can choose to leave or rejoin the cam and I think a lot of people are so passionate about their issues. But sometimes they end up leaving the caused entirely because they're burnout thoughts on that. I mean, I do think it's about then right like you have to have big inspiring goals and make you feel affray that make you feel inspired cuz if not, you just have a little to-do list so you should go out and do and I think what we need to do a movement work at a booth along vision and they will lay out the concrete steps that we are going to take to actually make progress and I do think that sometimes as movement leaders. We kind of Rome Exercise movements and talk about the struggle of it off. But if you're not putting any wins on the board, you need to go back and re-evaluate your strategy cuz this is not a social club is not a fun. It's about getting a freedom and Liberation for every person without exception and one of the lessons I really take from from from my study of movements is that we can't get tired so easily, you know, when you think about the Montgomery Bus Boycott, I mean people tell the story of it but you got to remember it was 381 days that they spent on that bus boycott 381 days of people coming together to figure out how they're going to get to work how they're going to get their kids at school. I'm trying to hold together a coalition where I guarantee somebody said my feet hurt today and I want to get on that bus, right and we have to be thinking about what it looks like to actually sustain a movement through tough. Because we know that there's a path to actually get to Victory and I think we have to talk about the size of it that are not as romantic more often that you know when you think about I just watched I'll be resting and you know, it's so inspiring but one of the biggest things I take away other than like you can make a a movie about organizing a March and it's actually really good school or not always on the same page yet. They came together around shared goals that they could accomplish together cuz it would allow the movement to advance for what does that look like for us in this moment to beat together in principle struggle, but still take steps for that's the only way we get towards progress and change. Yeah, I mean it is not only where people often not on the same page with sometimes they doing different things. But when you really look back at some of these movements they do feed on each other and that's the benefit of hindsight but in the moment, it may not have seemed that way as well. We're almost done. I just want to I want to add I like ending on a hopeful now, so we started with joy What are you most hopeful about in 2024 when it comes to smoke? Can I just say one thing? I almost forgot to mention this she's going to space there is that I don't know. It is top-secret. I don't know what is happening. She can't tell us what other than that. What are you hopeful for in this year? Gosh it sympathy actually when astronauts go to space for the first time many of them experiences call the overview effect. It's kind of an existential crisis. But essentially it's them seeing this pale blue dot, you know, everything that ever lived on this orbital spaceship earth and leave his technical people, but they returned to Earth as activists now, I'm already an octopus, but I'm really looking forward to it over the crisis a state of emergency right now. And I think the one thing that gives me hope is that it's often been in these moments of Crisis or movements are actually able to quit take leaves for that previously seemed impossible. Right and I travel the country particularly talking to queer and trans youth particularly trans youth in the South and seeing people talk about them and their lives for the first time and ways to acknowledge their existence and their Humanity has been transformative and I wonder if we know how much progress we've made and are moving in the last two decades and we know the moment that we're now what possibility could this crisis moment actually heal so that they know not just you know, when they see me coming to visit them but everywhere they go everywhere in the world that they are love that they are safe and that there's a community that's going to surround them and care just like we would to any of our kids and that to me gives me hope because there is something that's coming on the other side of the crisis. There's something on the other side. 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