Poland Eventually We Will Win

With Poland’s economic crisis showing no signs of easing, the government of Prime Minister Zbigniew Messner resigned last week, the first time an entire Cabinet has stepped down since Communist rule began in 1945. A new government, possibly including lay Catholics and moderate opposition figures, is expected to be installed this week. One of its first jobs: conducting negotiations next month with the Solidarity trade union, outlawed since 1981, and its leader Lech Walesa. In his first interview since agreeing to the talks, Walesa met with TIME Eastern Europe bureau chief Kenneth W. Banta and reporter Gertraud Lessing in a Gdansk church. Excerpts:

Q. Are you willing to forgo the legalization of Solidarity to reach a broader agreement — say, genuine pluralism within the existing official trade unions?

A. Solidarity must exist. And Solidarity must be legalized. However, it should not be the same Solidarity as in 1980. This time we must be cleverer, better, stronger to succeed. We want the existing official unions, about which we now have reservations, to remain trade unions. But these trade unions must be pluralistic.

Q. Doesn’t that mean ending Communist domination in Poland?

A. We must look at this with Polish eyes. We say that the world has tested pluralism and it works. But to implement pluralism does not necessarily mean transplanting what exists in the West. It is like bananas and oranges. They will not grow in our climate, however much we might like to have them.

Q. You are negotiating with the same regime that imposed martial law in 1981 and delegalized Solidarity. Why do you think the outcome will be better now?

A. We cannot bring new partners from the moon. Yes, the people remain the same. The question is not with whom we negotiate. The question is what we negotiate.

Q. What is the difference between now and 1981?

)

A. It’s the difference between heaven and earth. The situation has completely changed. The proof is the loud attack in parliament on failed reforms and the resignation of the government. This was the effect of our efforts at negotiating. Communism is stuck. We must change it. It may be very dangerous, and it may cost us a lot. But the epoch requires it.

Q. What lessons have you drawn in the past seven years?

A. If I had those years to do again, I would repeat them exactly as before. The first period had to be like that. Emotional, with banners, strikes. Otherwise we would have been kicked out of the plants by a platoon of police. Then, no one had a program. And there was no agreement between society and the authorities on what Poland needs. Today the center of society says there is a chance, and we must try it.

Q. You had great trouble persuading workers, especially young ones, to call off the last round of strikes that began in August so you could begin talks with the regime. How will you win their support?

A. I am full of sympathy for them. It is tragic that they must wait 30 or 40 years for an apartment, that they cannot afford so many things that the rest of the world has. If the young ones start shouting and demonstrating, well, that is the right of youth. I would also be shouting if I were them. I would make Walesa’s life harder for him.

Q. You said this summer that younger people should take over, but you are still leading the negotiations.

A. Personally, I would be very eager to be replaced. This job is really not so pleasant. But at this juncture it seems I am needed to bring these talks to a conclusion.

Q. Would you accept a leadership role?

A. I want no position in the leadership.

Q. What if the round-table talks collapse?

A. There will be new talks, and eventually they will succeed. Whether it is strikes or war, even the biggest battles in history have ended sitting down at a table. What is better — to be a boxing champion or a chess champion? I prefer chess. And I don’t have any doubt that eventually we will win.