--- title: The Conspirituality of Robert F. Kennedy Jr. description: 'After rejecting scientific evidence on viruses and vaccines, what’s Kennedy’s actual plan?' canonical: https://time.com/6292191/robert-f-kennedy-jr-conspiracy-theory-vaccines-essay/ author: TIME article:opinion: true article:content_tier: free article:published_time: 2023-07-05T16:29:20.000Z article:modified_time: 2026-04-30T11:03:14.656Z article:section: Ideas og:title: The Conspirituality of Robert F. Kennedy Jr. og:description: "After rejecting scientific evidence on viruses and vaccines, what’s Kennedy’s actual plan?" og:url: https://time.com/6292191/robert-f-kennedy-jr-conspiracy-theory-vaccines-essay/ og:site_name: TIME og:image: https://static.time.com/v3/assets/bltea6093859af6183b/bltbb9e71f7d63f42e9/698a3e4de6e84a2cc02b0411/robert-f-kennedy-jr-002.jpg?branch=production&width=1200&quality=75&auto=webp&crop=16:9 og:image:width: 2400 og:image:height: 1350 og:image:alt: Defeat the Mandates Rally in DC og:type: article twitter:card: summary_large_image twitter:title: The Conspirituality of Robert F. Kennedy Jr. twitter:description: "After rejecting scientific evidence on viruses and vaccines, what’s Kennedy’s actual plan?" twitter:image: https://static.time.com/v3/assets/bltea6093859af6183b/bltbb9e71f7d63f42e9/698a3e4de6e84a2cc02b0411/robert-f-kennedy-jr-002.jpg?branch=production&width=1200&quality=75&auto=webp&crop=16:9 --- # The Conspirituality of Robert F. 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It explains how TIME's journalism is made, from the first pitch through the editorial decisions behind a finished story or cover. #### How can I read about how TIME chooses its covers? Inside TIME is the newsletter where TIME's Editor-in-Chief explains cover selection and the editorial reasoning behind major stories. It is free at time.com/newsletters. #### Who is the editor of TIME? Sam Jacobs is TIME's Editor-in-Chief. He writes Inside TIME, a twice-weekly newsletter about the newsroom's reporting and editorial decisions. #### Is Inside TIME free? Yes. Inside TIME is a free newsletter, available at time.com/newsletters. A paid TIME subscription is separate and available at time.com/subscribe-agent. ## Video: TIME DC Report: Inside the Very Online Campaign of RFK Jr. [Watch (HLS stream): TIME DC Report: Inside the Very Online Campaign of RFK Jr.](https://cdn.jwplayer.com/manifests/32U2oXdJ.m3u8) (19:58)  _Published 2023-06-20. TIME Senior Correspondents Vera Bergengruen and Molly Ball discuss the controversial 2024 presidential candidate RFK Jr. Vera Bergengruen visited Kennedy at his Los Angeles home for a profile in TIME.com._ Jul 5, 2023 4:29 PM UTC by [Derek Beres](https://time.com/author/derek-beres/), [Matthew Remski](https://time.com/author/matthew-remski/) and [Julian Walker](https://time.com/author/julian-walker/) Jul 5, 2023 4:29 PM UTC “God talks to human beings through many vectors,” Robert F. Kennedy Jr. [tweeted](https://twitter.com/RobertKennedyJr/status/1648739487239766040) on April 19th, 2023, the day he announced his primary challenge to Joe Biden. “But nowhere with such detail, and grace and joy, as through creation. When we destroy nature, we diminish our capacity to sense the divine.” The pious opening signals how carefully Kennedy has navigated his journey to the national stage. Because it’s not the name recognition, or his reputation as an avenging environmental lawyer that puts him in the game. It’s not that he helped found the Waterkeeper Alliance (a global network that lobbies to protect water sources) or [built a solid record](https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/16/opinion/robert-kennedy-pine-ridge.html) in defending Indigenous peoples from industrial land-grabs and pollution. It’s not his [muscular Catholicism](https://www.vaticannews.va/en/world/news/2018-06/robert-kennedy-jr-father-interview-anniversary.html). One important reason Kennedy is polling at around [15%](https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/4054131-rfk-jr-holds-15-percent-support-in-democratic-primary-poll/#:~:text=In%20a%20new%20Harvard%20CAPS,a%20positive%20view%20of%20him.) in the nascent race is because he leads a juggernaut of antivax misinformation that attracts a swarm of conspiracy theorists, from far-right radio host Alex Jones, to left-leaning New Age “COVID-dissident” Charles Eisenstein, who is now serving as his [Director of Messaging](https://charleseisenstein.substack.com/p/a-major-life-change?utm%5Fsource=substack&utm%5Fmedium=email). **_Read More:_**[_Inside the Very Online Campaign of RFK Jr._](https://time.com/6287001/rfk-jr-interview-2024-campaign/) It’s not hard to see how Kennedy became the darling of broken thought leaders. He openly [doubts the official account of his uncle John F. Kennedy’s assassination](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/rfk-jr-dad-believed-warren-commission-shoddy/), which claimed that Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone. He’s also convinced that [Sirhan Sirhan was part of a larger operation](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/retropolis/wp/2018/05/26/who-killed-bobby-kennedy-his-son-rfk-jr-doesnt-believe-it-was-sirhan-sirhan/) when he supposedly killed his father Bobby Kennedy in that Los Angeles hotel kitchen in 1968. In addition to these mythic-scale stories, a more sinister strategy drew Kennedy deeper into the twilight of conspiracism: medical libertarianism. As Kennedy recounts in a [2017 forward](https://www.google.ca/books/edition/The%5FPeanut%5FAllergy%5FEpidemic%5FThird%5FEditio/IGeCDwAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1) to a third edition of _The Peanut Allergy Epidemic_ by Heather Fraser, his son Conor needed 29 visits to the emergency room for severe allergies and anaphylactic shock before the age of three. That relentless stress started Kennedy down the road of questioning the difference between industrial and pharmaceutical crimes. While Fraser’s book falsely argues that childhood vaccines cause deadly food allergies, Kennedy took a different angle through his Children’s Health Defense nonprofit. Since its founding in 2016, CHD has pushed the false idea that the mercury compound thimerosal makes vaccines unsafe, even though thimerosal had been largely phased out in 2001\. It was a plausible equation for Kennedy, who as an environmental lawyer was obsessed with [mercury poisoning](https://www.counterhate.com/%5Ffiles/ugd/f4d9b9%5F6910f8ab94a241cfa088953dd5e60968.pdf) in water systems and food chains. By 2019, Kennedy was the [leading buyer of antivax ads on Facebook](https://arstechnica.com/science/2019/11/robert-f-kennedy-jr-is-the-single-leading-source-of-anti-vax-ads-on-facebook/), and was implicated in a [measles outbreak in Samoa](https://www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2019-12-07/measles-outbreak-in-samoa-anti-vaccine-advocates-win) that infected 5,700 and killed 83\. The outbreak followed the tragic deaths of two children who had received contaminated vaccines. Kennedy traveled to Samoa, and was pictured with a local antivax advocate. This was followed by Children’s Health Defense sending a letter to the Prime Minister of Samoa, urging him to question the general safety of the Measles, Mumps, & Rubella (MMR) vaccine. This tragedy echoed the [measles outbreaks in Somali immigrant communities](https://www.statnews.com/2017/05/08/measles-vaccines-somali/) in Minnesota in 2011 and 2017. The Somalis had been specifically targeted by the antivax propagandist Andrew Wakefield, whose [falsified 1998 study ](https://www.bmj.com/content/342/bmj.c7452)started the still-lingering conspiracy theory that the MMR vaccine causes autism. More than a year before Kennedy lost his Instagram account for spreading medical misinformation, he used it to [sing Wakefield’s praises](https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/116449847/the-disgraced-antivaxx-doctor-the-supermodel-and-the-measles-epidemic), dubbing him “among the most unjustly vilified figures of modern history.” In 2021, [the Center for Countering Digital Hate](https://counterhate.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/05/210324-The-Disinformation-Dozen.pdf) linked Kennedy on their list of the 12 influencers responsible for up to 73% of all antivax content on Facebook, and 65% of all digital antivax content overall. (Kennedy was [reinstated to Instagram](https://www.reuters.com/technology/instagram-reinstates-robert-f-kennedy-jr-amid-presidential-bid-launch-wapo-2023-06-04/) on June 4, 2023, on the grounds that he’s running for president.) Today, Kennedy is trying to keep this record on the down-low, in favor of a more mainstream vibe on the stump. He wants to be known as an eco-prophet, and as an anti-corporate, anti-interventionist truth-teller. His Twitter feed blends eco-spirituality with Catholic-icon-style photos of his assassinated uncle, John F. Kennedy, and quotes that lean hard into [his passion for free speech](https://twitter.com/RobertKennedyJr/status/1655672228397064210) and fearlessness in the face of “[unpleasant facts](https://twitter.com/RobertKennedyJr/status/1654867503720300545/photo/1).” And so far, it’s working. He hasn’t yet faced any tough, prime-time questions about Samoa, Wakefield, or the support he has from right-wing extremists who use antivax rhetoric as a recruitment tool. Why does Alex Jones think Kennedy is [“awake”](https://www.mediamatters.org/alex-jones/alex-jones-praises-robert-f-kennedy-jr-listening-infowars)? Why did Donald Trump’s former White House chief strategist Steve Bannon [urge him](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/anti-vaccine-activist-robert-f-kennedy-jr-challenging-biden-in-2024/) to run for—or disrupt—the Democrats? Why does conservative political consultant [Roger Stone think that Trump-Kennedy](https://www.vice.com/en/article/z3mxzy/trump-robert-kennedy-jr-vice-president-roger-stone) would be a 2024 dream ticket? --- This MAGA-tinged, medical libertarian fanbase is hard to reckon with for anyone who associates the Kennedy name with the Camelot era of governmental idealism. In 1960, JFK’s New Frontier called for the expansion of unemployment benefits, a new Housing Act, the Clean Air Act, and the establishment of the Peace Corps. It foregrounded equal rights for women. It proposed a Medicare plan—and called for a new Vaccination Assistance Act. JFK also famously pushed an ambitious Civil Rights agenda, with anti-racism proposals and early attempts at affirmative action. But his nephew has twisted this portion of his family’s political capital into a bizarre inversion of social justice, paid out in a risk of[ heightened vaccine hesitancy in Black communities](https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2021/06/08/1004214189/anti-vaccine-film-targeted-to-black-americans-spreads-false-information). He’s formed opportunistic alliances with fringe Black leaders like Tony Muhammad to exploit the historical trauma of medical racism in the U.S., and provide [the (largely white) antivax movement](https://theconversation.com/the-inherent-racism-of-anti-vaxx-movements-163456) with sprinkles of diversity. Muhammad is a minister in the Nation of Islam, designated by the[ Southern Poverty Law Center](https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/group/nation-islam) as a Black nationalist hate group that promotes antisemitic and anti-LGBTQ rhetoric. Since 2015, he has been repeating [the false claim that the C.D.C genetically modified MMR vaccines](https://jezebel.com/the-anti-vaccination-movement-is-working-with-the-natio-1796021231) to harm Back and Latino boys. In speeches and in his 2021 docsploitation film [_Medical Racism: The New Apartheid_](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/nbcblk/covid-s-devastation-black-community-used-marketing-new-anti-vaxxer-n1260724)_,_ Kennedy repeatedly raises the Tuskegee Syphilis Study, implying that COVID mitigations constitute a similar medical atrocity. The study ran from 1932 to 1972, and recruited Black men afflicted with the syphilis so that government researchers, who were mostly white, could study its long-term effects. The researchers did not disclose the men’s diagnosis to them and only treated their symptoms with placebos. The ghoulish aim was to document what would happen as the disease progressed. But Black pro-vaccine activists [reject the Tuskegee comparison](https://www.kqed.org/news/11861810/no-the-tuskegee-study-is-not-the-top-reason-some-black-americans-question-the-covid-19-vaccine), because it involved withholding medication without consent. Rejecting Kennedy’s racial opportunism, they explain that whatever vaccine hesitancy exists in their communities stems from sustained structural racism, producing impacts like unequal access to care—an issue that Kennedy and other white anti-vax activists gloss over. Kennedy’s co-optation of Black liberation efforts in community health distorts a nuanced history. We never hear from him, for example, about how in the 1970s the Black Panthers [made access to free, evidence-based health care ](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/labs/pmc/articles/PMC5024403/)a pillar of their revolutionary vision. They established 13 free health clinics in communities across the country, offering physicals, gynecological and dental exams, and cancer screenings. They sponsored pioneering research. They also provided free vaccinations. --- On January 23rd, 2022, Kennedy brought his COVID-era antivax conspiracism to new heights. He took the stage as a speaker at [the Defeat The Mandates march](https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-news/anti-vaccine-rfk-jr-rally-washington-dc-1289458) in Washington, D.C., [shouting out](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=joiLT2IT2qQ) that over the past two years America had witnessed “a coup d’etat against democracy and the controlled demolition of the United States Constitution and the Bill of Rights.” He railed against the censorship of free speech—while, ironically, speaking to thousands through a microphone from the steps of the Lincoln Memorial, and [into a livestream](https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va/2022/01/23/dc-anti-vaccine-rally-mandates-protest/) hosted by fellow antivax tycoon Del Bigtree. The blueblood bona fides, the Harvard degree, and the leftward tilt make Kennedy an outsider to this mainly right-wing crowd. But his rhetoric makes him right at home. “What we’re seeing today,” Kennedy bellowed, “is what I call turnkey totalitarianism.” Every totalitarian state, he explained, has sought to control every aspect of life, and been unsuccessful, until now. “None of them have been able to do it. They didn’t have the technological capacity.” Kennedy went on to say that soon, Bill Gates would be spying on everyone with his 65,000 satellites. That the 5G wireless system would control all cash, and the food supply. That once vaccine passports were issued, there would be no escape. “Even in Hitler’s Germany you could cross the Alps into Switzerland, you could hide in an attic like Anne Frank did.” A swift outcry [forced Kennedy to apologize](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/jan/25/robert-f-kennedy-jr-vaccine-anne-frank) for the offensive comparison. How does conspiracy theory bingo pour out of Kennedy so easily? Social psychologists [have shown](https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/why-people-believe-conspiracy-theories/) that believing in one theory predicts believing in others—even if they contradict each other. They also know about [“apophenia,”](https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ejsp.2331) or the capacity some have for seeing patterns where none exist. But political scientist Michael Barkun [argues](https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.1525/j.ctt1pnjvz) that the conspiracy theorists also seek power over their worlds by obsessing over three anxious laws: nothing is as it seems, everything is connected, and nothing happens by accident. It’s a galaxy-brained orientation, and it allows a figure like Kennedy to cosplay as a warrior-sage who can peer through all lies, in all sectors of society, and to feel the grim satisfaction of every horrible thing fitting together. **_Read More:_**[_Robert F Kennedy Jr. Is Dead Wrong About Vaccines_](https://time.com/6289037/robert-f-kennedy-jr-wrong-about-vaccines/) The three laws do something else as well—they provide a sense of [“conspirituality,](https://matthewremski.medium.com/the-conspirituality-report-home-5b6006b4543d)” in which political anxieties merge with spiritual hopes, and instill not only a sort of reassurance, but also a mission: every cruel plot point begets the necessity for spiritual warfare and renewal. The battles are fought on individualistic terms, which turns innocuous phrases like “bodily sovereignty,” and a directive like “do your own research” into an anxiom for contrarian thinking that rejects expertise in a harmful mantra not just for discourse surrounding vaccines, but in virtually every discipline. Kennedy isn’t wrong when he’s said that industry lies about pollution and Big Pharma extracts odious profits while neoliberal bureaucrats shrug. But there’s a difference between seeing connections and building real-world solutions. After rejecting scientific evidence on viruses and vaccines, what’s Kennedy’s actual plan? It’s another mystery, which is why it wasn’t surprising that amid the mania of the pandemic, Kennedy turned deeper to religion . On Sept 2, 2021, he gave a keynote address at the Autism Recovery in the Age of Covid-19 conference hosted by AutismOne at Godspeak Calvary Chapel in Thousand Oaks, California. “We are in the last battle,” [he said.](https://www.sltrib.com/opinion/commentary/2023/07/05/michelle-goldberg-robert-f-kennedy/) “This is the apocalypse. We are fighting for the salvation of all humanity.” Still, Kennedy’s focus has always been more on Eden than on the End Days. Children are his perennial fixation. What went wrong with the children, with their allergies and asthma, what could still go wrong? How can he defend them all in a world of confusion and assaults, where all the strong fathers have disappeared? And this is where his campaign will attract at least some scattered remnants of QAnon, where a deluded concern for children is sacrosanct. “Imagine RFK Jr. redpilling the hell out of libs on the vaccine,” as [one QAnon poster](https://www.mediamatters.org/coronavirus-covid-19/right-wing-media-and-fringe-figures-are-celebrating-rfk-jrs-run-president) put it on Truth Social. But with a brain addled by fever dreams, it’s unlikely Kennedy can offer the safety of Camelot to anyone. When asked to comment from the campaign trail on the horror of the mass shooting in Allen, Texas, he pulled that [antivax logic out of the air](https://twitter.com/ronfilipkowski/status/1656062005613146112?s=46&t=Q8fUqQMZwOQKab7T2I1mDw), opting for the least scientific answer possible. “Almost every one of these shooters were on SSRIs, or some other psychiatric drug,” he said. _This article has been adapted from Chapter 23 of_ [Conspirituality: How New Age Conspiracy Theories Became a Health Threat ](https://www.hachettebookgroup.com/titles/derek-beres/conspirituality/9781541702981/)_by Derek Beres, Matthew Remski, and Julian Walker. Copyright © 2023\. Available from PublicAffairs, an imprint of Hachette Book Group, Inc._ ## Transcript I am Molly ball of Time. Magazine. I'm here with my colleague Vera, bergengruen, welcome. Thank you. So we're here to talk about your new profile of Bobby, Kennedy jr. Now, you normally Cover disinformation far-right online communities. How did that lead you to a profile of Bobby? Kennedy. Yeah, so I'm usually kind of an investigative correspondent. I caught a lot of online movements where these kind of ideas come from that can come over like large groups of people especially on the internet and it was covering a lot. The end of vaccine movement during covid-19 off. And who the big personalities were that whose name? I'm kind of concerned onimus with the movement. And one of them was RK Junior and people really responded to him partly, maybe because he the Kennedy to recognize his name, but he has been running on anti-vaccine Organization for decades before it became you know trendiest people can decide to Winco before it became much more from mainstream idea. And so I actually went to a big rally on the Lincoln Memorial. It was called the The Mandate that was last January in 2022 and he was one of the keynote speakers. It was a very right-wing rally. It was you know Evan was holding all these signs, that had a range of very right-wing, slogans that proud boys over there and he is no purpose to the Democrat and he was there as one of the main speakers. And a lot of people really responded to him to his message. About, you know, the dangers of vaccines. What he said, was a big cover-up by the government and all the more Republicans, all of them were very conservative and they told me that they really admired him and we're going to keep following, you know, the career and see what he does next. And so, I also kept covering what he did next and now, you know, he's running as a Democrat, but it seems to have a very odd Coalition of support from the far left the far-right and kind of everything between, right? So he's not running for president, in the Democratic primary against President, Joe Biden, but it's a very unconventional campaign. Talk about the time. You spent with him the reporting that you did. He actually lives. Play, you know, he's married to Cheryl Hines, who's a famous actress from Curb, Your Enthusiasm. And, you know, he, he usually number to go route and I went to his house. He lives, you know, about, you know, thousand feet above sea level, you lose reception. When you drive up to his house in Mandeville Canyon. And, you know, his entire home is living room at the shrine to his fangs. Uncle famous father. He has, you know, a bust of, you know, JFK he's got all these frames Memorial, ER, from his dad. He was nine when his uncle was assassinated and fourteen when his that was shot. And so it's almost like he's created this like time. Kind of stopped at that moment, he's got there. So you know, they were both so young when they were killed and so he get all very, they have all these campaign posters, you know, he a junior himself is 69 and so, you know, that's frozen in time if he's very young curse, not a politicians were cut down in their Prime. And he says he's trying to continue on their legacy and you can tell by being in his home that, you know, he's kind of spent his whole life in that shadow and thinking about that Legacy. Kissing you, the really understanding guy, you can tell that he had the demeanor of someone who's used to being listen to, he was born at Kennedy. He was always very political and it's almost like he's used to being listened to on any topic, whether it's cryptocurrency or Ukraine, you know, he goes He studies it and then you know, he goes out and talks about what he's learned and he's used to people take him seriously. And so he's, you know, it's on in some ways cuz you look at him and you he says he Bears a striking resemblance to his dad. Everyone always said he was the one that was the most similar and the one that most kind of had his political talents but he he has a vocal disorder. He lost his voice when he was forty-two. He he says it's a side effect of the vaccine and there's no proof of that. But it's almost like you're looking at his dad or at his uncle at someone who looks pretty familiar. But, you know, he got old and they never did. And so he kind of has this again, this is very kind of 60s. Look, A very simple way of expressing himself, but it's when you listen to what is actually saying, he's someone, who clearly spent a lot of time online. He speaks kind of in the in the parlance of someone who's spent a lot of time with Twitter spaces and talks a lot and kind of right-wing telegram groups. And so it is a really odd combination of that kind of sixties nostalgic style. You guys are popular in the 60s, just like his uncle and his dad he will have his sleeves rolled up in there a certain look that consciously or unconsciously. He's trying to emulate and at the same time he's probably the most online that he's got a tick tock, he's out there talking about censorship and you know, you know, all those kind of things. And so is it was very, it was a very interesting conversation, two to listen to someone who I got stuck in such different kind of Spears when you talk about him sort of going on and on, and on at length. Lots of seems like it's a Nostalgia that goes beyond just the Kennedy family, right? It's it's a it's an older America that he's trying to invoke. Yeah, it really struck me from his work throughout his life in different ways. He keeps referring back to, you know, and even before he was even alive, and he's kind of talking about, you know, people used to be able to go out when they lost her job and you know, catch fish in the river and feed their families and now the rivers are polluted and so I'm trying to say is it goes all the way back. He really kind of house is very nostalgic vision of America but especially kind of from what he considers, the Golden Era of the 60s which again, you know, his life was kind of divided into before. And after his father was assassinated and, you know, it cut short, this campaigne that was so much about optimism about, forward-looking Bobby, Kennedy campaign was, it was just all about the future in about, you know, this this particular vision for America and he sees himself as the heir of that. But really all he talks about is a past, he kind of talks about, you know, their companies in you. Be able to poison medicines without anyone holding me accountable. The government's, you know, people used to trust the government and, you know, not to lie to them, but he speaks about this era and clearly wants to return to it. And so, I specifically just asked him, I said, it's an actual strikes, me pretty, pretty maggotty, pretty Trump in and he said, he'd let you know I I I want to go back to the Americas, my youth, and he wants to know when you go to his campaign rallies, the signs are I'm at Kennedy Democrat. And then the same font in the same blue block letters from the 60s, and even though I think most people now, but it's still kind of seems to bring up something in most Democrats in this era, that's clearly. Been kind of idealized, but they, you know, it sounds pretty good for people to say, sure, we want to go back to that, we're decided fight with a current current political sphere. We're okay with vide, we don't really like him all that much and would love to go back to what you're describing. People probably know the famous name, they may know his anti-vaccine activism, but but talked a little bit about his career before that. So he, you know, he got really into environmental law when he was younger, he spent three decades, you know, becoming a very famous Environmental Lawyer. He he got all kinds of awards accolades respected in the field. He was, he's pretty intense and obsessive about his passions, everyone says that you can tell no matter what he focuses on, he's he kind of has to be that way. And so he just, you know, relentlessly, pursued polluters views are credited with cleaning up the Hudson, you do kind of doing all the company's coal oil and you know, focusing a lot of indigenous communities. He traveled a lot of South America and you know, again like it did, that's what many people do, remember, I think it was used on magazine covers. I see no big-hitting matters. The one is going to be there to put the one with the political future and then Is it important to realize that this is a continuation of the world for you? It's not a lot of people have been asking recently since become so prominent. You know what happened to RFK Jr. You know, when did he kind of what he's go off the deep end. But when you is important to understand that for him, he was pursuing polluters and then he decided that vaccines were polluted with Mercury. None of this as a scientific basis of scientists and experts say it's not true. But, you know, he basically decided that vaccines were being polluted, it died. You know, he says died when he was younger, that was no autism allergies. He basically, he pulls this all these facts together, which it, you know, that's what they take out of context and basically decided, I didn't know kind of in the same idea of going backwards. The thing that I change, we're back to the Inns and they're dangerous for children, and I guess there's no factual basis to this but he founded Does an energy. Basically built the largest anti-vaccine organization in the United States and the Kennedy name kind of help with that because if you come out of nowhere and start saying these things, you might not get very far, but use the family name to kind of give some respectability to very French anti-vaccine views. Would you remain friends until recently until the pandemic have brought a lot of these probably important to emphasize very dangerous on scientific non-factual ideas about vaccines into the mainstream, very dangerous ideas but but he's had this appetite for conspiracy theories for a long time in addition to the vaccine stuff, even even stuff about his dad, right, right. And he seemed to be a bit more on TV interviews, to talk about his family to talk about his environmental work. And once he really weird hard into these, you know, dangerous conspiracy theories about vaccines, he was kind of ostracized. You wasn't allowed Documentary about his dad, he was people. Basically, he didn't want to do anything until he started going further further to every kind of conspiracies, which you may have kind of believed before, but clearly now felt so you might as well go into them. So, he had a very expensive theory about the 2004 election being stolen, he thinks if ye killed his dad, he, you know, it and then you just kind of goes on, zaidi is being installed in order to harvest are, are you know, all kinds of different formation about us and all these things usually positions in a way that many people would kind of agree with, and then, he kind of goes way way further a tactic that it's pretty effective to get people to believe in conspiracies, governing philosophy Beyond this sort of idea that there's a conspiracy out there, does he have a set of political beliefs that you could imagine, you know, being president and, and, and, and working from that, right? I mean he isnae idea. A proposal to anything like that for for most areas his main idea is that, you know, there's his corporate control of government of every agency and he needs to route that out. He needs to get rid of all those financial conflicts of interest, all those entanglements, and, you know, basically return the government to the people and his, his tagline for his campaign is reclaim democracy, which is pretty Stark particular way to. And again, I asked him, how would you do that? You know how old that seems? You know, it sounds, I think your people would disagree that rooting out corruption. All the things he says on their face, sound good to most people. He said, he would be very easy. He was fully confident. He said, I'm just, you know, he says he sued so many of these agencies that he knows exactly who's a good person or a bad person and he'll be able to, basically get rid of them. And I just kind of started getting him some agencies. I said, you know what about the FDA? He's like, oh yeah, you know, I'm going to put in the people, I used to work with the lawyer. CIA. And he said, most people were just trying to do their best, but again you need to kind of get rid of the top vanity. No top people who are, you know, it is. Mine kind of completely controlled by all these corrupt corporations that are pulling the strings. And the main, that's just as main message is basically get me in there and I will kind of go back to this particular version of thank you know you didn't have our discussions of particular immigration policy. He doesn't have comprehensive policies for healthcare. Maybe, you know, that was early days but the two main things are kind of corporate control. What he does, the corporate control of American government and also for Ukraine and kind of get America out of the cycle of being a ball to Broad. And most interesting things I thought about your story was this very unconventional set of fans that he's attracted. He obviously runs in some very Circles campaign now is attracting support for from everyone, from Aaron Rodgers, the quarterback to to Jack Dorsey, the Twitter founder Alicia Silverstone, other other Hollywood figured, I could talk a little bit about this was a very unconventional campaign. He's running. Yeah, it's it's very odd. The kind of people. He's attractive have pretty big megaphones, you know, they're very well known people. Some of them again. I think a lot of them are kind of drawn there. They're not excited about Joe Biden, and it's not that they're necessarily behind everything. RFK Jr. Is selling because it's still unclear. Like, we said, what exactly he selling for the most part, but they like having an alternative and what they're really drawn to I think, is being able to discuss these pet issues with a lot of them have as well. You know, Alicia Silverstone. The actress was very well-presented. Maxine organization to do, you know, which is called the Children's Health defense fund. So it's like $8 around the idea of children and like, you know, but you know what kind of saving the children. Other people like what he says about censorship, if it has been a very long ongoing debate, especially last couple years about people being canceled about people who, you know, who decides, what information will be on Twitter. You know, this is the kind of free speech, absolutist, Ian must file people. He, he basically just because of his name and because of the way she is, she's basically giving all these people a platform in order to discuss need ideas in a way that you would never have with even friends with anyone who was kind of in the current political mainstream and so people, you know, must wants to have a conversation, where are FID? You and your ma must keep that. What do you think and do boss was thrilled to tell him what he thought? And so he is I think that's the reason to talk to him. This very unlikely Coalition is partly is left because people most people don't want you to feel hear what are P. Junior things in terms of X in the country, but he's presenting an opportunity to have these conversations. Interesting. So I should report even most members of his family, don't support what he's doing, they've written not bad saying you don't he's sort of using the Kennedy name but he does seem to be getting traction letters. Consistently. Now in a lot of these early polls of the Democratic primary. He's in solid double digits, as high as 20%, should we be taking him seriously as a candidate, could he win? Well, that's a good question. I think there aren't many people challenging Joe Biden. So, I think, in terms of polls, he had a lot of name recognition again. Kennedy people at, you know, you talked to both theirs and they say, Okay, lot of people are just saying, yes, I would support him because they aren't excited about Biden. And the Kennedy name means something, but he is. Attracting like I was skeptical, but he is attracting a interesting amount of support. I spoken to a lot of people who either didn't vote in the last election or, you know, just just kind of seemed for four for different reasons. Motivated about this guy and he is running what he calls kind of. But you know he's he's going a lot of podcast, he's kind of attracting. He's really, he's spending. He's getting a lot of oxygen from a lot of new mediums not that new but that aren't really use as much and campaigning. It's a lot of people basically listening to him. You know, he's recently gone on Joe Rogan 11 million people listen to every episode of an average. And so that's a lot of people for someone like Dim Hue. Four years ago was completely on the fringes and nobody would believe I have on their platform just to talk about some pretty dangerous conspiracy theories, you know, the doctors and everything. You know, this is going to get people killed and he says, he told me straight up, he said a running for president, makes it hard for me to be censored it. So he's kind of doing this to an extent to be listened to. And when you talk to him, you really get the sense that he was. He was very upset and very hurt. And by all these, by family members, by the political establishment by one, turning their backs on someone, they used to call during campaign season 2 indoors though. You know? And so, he feels like he's an element, he's doing what he's meant to be doing. And I do just by going out there and constantly, not refusing a single interview going on every podcast. I don't think you can win, but I think he's exposing his. Real goal seemed to me to also just expose the most people that he can to the ideas. It sounds like it's almost a form of indication for him. We're right at the end of your pace that, that, that his candidacy made may say more about America in 2023 than that about him specifically, what to you, is the larger phenomenon that he represent. I think he's giving know this is a it started, it was started before covid but it really became bullied a parent's most people during covid-19 LeSabre types discussed we can call it conspiracy theories and call it this information, but really wanting to be out there challenging challenging. The kind of what they would call the mainstream narrative about whether it's covid-19 is a lot of kind of anti-establishment contrarian. People who have pretty, you give a big platforms where we know pretty well off. And they want to be having this conversation these conversations in a political context and he's basically giving them the excuse to do that. And so I think that, you know, people love to stuff in this kind of stuff. People have a lot of the pandemic, the disruption of it. And just, you know, just the amount of confusion that they was with the health maintenance with everything else. You know, people had a lot of legitimate questions about that. It also allow you to give an opening for a lot of conspiracy theories. How deep in distress of government of government agencies of the government, telling you what to do and, you know, the back seat again. See, mended kind of only expanded that and he used that to his Advantage because he's basically, you know, he, he, he and many other people's want to keep forgetting what happened during covid and you know, with everything with his 2020 election, January 6th, very big moment, the truck, this moment happened and these people want to keep discussing it and kind of what they want to say is we were right so he's kind of you know that we were right about this you know they said that you should wear a mask and then if it doesn't understand some people want to keep discussing it. A lot of people who really fell into those things. You know lost family members over at lost jobs over it and you know they were ostracized by people and now he's getting them a chance to kind of be kind of Vindicated and so I'm a very high platform discussion of these things which a year ago probably wouldn't be getting another option is such a Sitting face. Thank you so much and smiling. ```json [{"@context":"https://schema.org","@type":"OpinionNewsArticle","@id":"https://time.com/6292191/robert-f-kennedy-jr-conspiracy-theory-vaccines-essay/","mainEntityOfPage":{"@type":"WebPage","@id":"https://time.com/6292191/robert-f-kennedy-jr-conspiracy-theory-vaccines-essay/"},"headline":"The Conspirituality of Robert F. 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