--- description: "It's like an orgy of oppo that they're dropping on him and I have no idea if he'll get over the hump," says a Democratic consultant, in our weekly conversation about this week in D.C. title: Madison Cawthorn, Aid for Ukraine, and a Historic Subpoena image: https://static.time.com/v3/assets/bltea6093859af6183b/blt026fff98b2978482/698a31cfb3fce3661e0c93da/madison-Cawthron-republicans.jpg?branch=production&width=3840&quality=75&auto=webp&crop=16:9 ---  * [Politics](/section/politics/) ## Politics Update your preferences in [Account Settings](/account/preferences/) Close * [The D.C. Brief](/tag/the-dc-brief/) ## The D.C. Brief Update your preferences in [Account Settings](/account/preferences/) Close # The Back Booth: An ‘Orgy of Oppo' on Madison Cawthorn and an Unprecedented Subpoena  by [Philip Elliott](/author/philip-elliott/)  ## Philip Elliott Update your preferences in [Account Settings](/account/preferences/) Close Senior Correspondent May 14, 2022 5:00 PM CUT  Rep. Madison Cawthorn speaks before a rally for former President Donald Trump at The Farm at 95 in Selma, NC, on April 9, 2022. Rep. Madison Cawthorn speaks before a rally for former President Donald Trump at The Farm at 95 in Selma, NC, on April 9, 2022.Allison Joyce—Getty Images  by [Philip Elliott](/author/philip-elliott/)  ## Philip Elliott Update your preferences in [Account Settings](/account/preferences/) Close Senior Correspondent May 14, 2022 5:00 PM CUT _Welcome to The Back Booth, a weekend edition of The D.C. Brief. Here each Saturday, TIME’s politics newsletter will host a conversation between political professionals on the right and the left, pulling back the curtain on the conversations taking place in Washington when the tape stops rolling. Subscribe to The D.C. Brief_ [_here_](https://cloud.newsletters.time.com/signup?nln=dc-brief&source=dc%5Fonsite "undefined")_._ It’s a rare day in Washington when one’s colleagues send a subpoena to a boss asking them to come testify about what exactly they did amid an effort to overturn an election, subvert democracy, and retain an incumbent President who insists against all facts that he won the vote. And, yet… This week, The D.C. Brief chatted with two pros in the political trenches about the stunning [invitation](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/january-6-committee-subpoena-kevin-mccarthy-jim-jordan-mo-brooks-scott-perry-andy-biggs/ "undefined")—without a _no_ box—for House minority leader Kevin McCarthy and four other Republicans to testify before the committee probing the failed Jan. 6 insurrection, as well as the drama [unfurling](https://www.nytimes.com/2022/05/13/us/elections/kathy-barnette-pennsylvania-senate.html "undefined") in Pennsylvania’s Senate race and the continuing [war](https://time.com/6173543/world-press-freedom-index-2022/ "undefined") in Ukraine. From the right, **Ethan Eilon** is one of the Republican Party’s best under-the-radar tech leaders. He has worked for the political arm of the network of the Koch orbit, congressional races and White House bids. He [tinkered](https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/gops-hunt-for-new-trump-donors-drove-millions-to-low-profile-firm/2016/12/12/64c03aba-bbc4-11e6-94ac-3d324840106c%5Fstory.html "undefined") with the Republican National Committee’s delegate rules and helped the party weaponize its digital fundraising. On the left, **Jesse Ferguson** has been one of the quiet forces inside rooms where power has been negotiated, won, or ceded over the last two decades. He had a hand in running House Democrats’ campaign advertising efforts, worked as their political spokesman, and was one of Hillary Clinton’s most effective attack dogs as she chased a return to the White House. Both are now consultants. The conversation has been edited. **Elliott: Welcome to this week’s Back Booth. Dr. Biden is** [**back**](https://people.com/politics/jill-biden-essay-ukraine-trip-womens-stories-urge-vladimir-putin-end-war/ "undefined") **from Ukraine, which seems to be** [**holding**](https://time.com/6174161/foreign-women-fighters-ukraine-volunteers/ "undefined")**. If you’re running in a swing district or competitive statewide, how are you positioning the seemingly endless stream of cash going into that country? I mean, it seems like the current aid package had almost** [**no**](https://www.nytimes.com/2022/05/10/us/politics/congress-ukraine-aid-questions.html "undefined") **debate or questions asked.** Ferguson: Americans are overwhelmingly [behind](https://news.gallup.com/opinion/polling-matters/390866/know-american-public-opinion-ukraine.aspx "undefined") backing Ukraine in defending themselves from Putin. Some people see it as the compassionate thing to do and others see it as the way to defend freedom and democracy. It’s a [faction](https://www.thenation.com/article/politics/putins-republican-sympathizers/ "undefined") of GOP politicians and GOP voters who would rather let Putin get away with this and aren’t worried about defending democracy any more. Eilon: The Biden administration has failed to lead. They sat on the sidelines and watched as this war unfolded. In fact, recent [polling](https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-biden-europe-nato-3e68ceb4c389c84f395f6deecea3906d "undefined") shows the majority of Americans think Biden has not been tough enough on Ukraine. That failure is going to be top of mind, and consistent with voters’ views of the disastrous [withdrawal](https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/31/us/politics/biden-defends-afghanistan-withdrawal.html "undefined") from Afghanistan. The aid is important, that’s why it passed as quickly as it did, but it doesn’t make up for the failure of leadership that we’ve seen to date. Americans are already dealing with increasing [inflation](https://www.wsj.com/articles/biden-casts-himself-as-the-inflation-hero-prices-taxes-spending-stimulus-deficit-11652297040 "undefined") rates and soaring [gas](https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2022/05/10/gas-prices-are-up-again-putting-biden-fresh-bind/ "undefined") prices, and the situation in Ukraine has only made it worse. I doubt voters will forget that. **Elliott: I’m curious what you make of the state GOP’s open** [**antagonism**](https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2022/05/10/thom-tillis-madison-cawthorn-primary/ "undefined") **of Madison Cawthron ahead of the North Carolina** [**primary**](https://apnews.com/article/2022-midterm-elections-social-media-north-carolina-219902ac8442fbe1f1b85a7736370222 "undefined")**. It seems pretty** [**epic**](https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/republicans-frustrated-gop-rep-madison-cawthorn-unsubstantiated-sex/story?id=83818887 "undefined")**, even by today’s standards.** Eilon: Given the [recent](https://www.npr.org/2022/05/02/1095770735/madison-cawthorn-allegations "undefined") [press](https://www.cnbc.com/2022/05/05/gop-rep-madison-cawthorn-calls-leaked-nude-video-of-him-blackmail.html "undefined"), it shouldn’t surprise anyone. Ultimately, if you’re talking about scandals, that means you’re not talking about what the voters or the state needs, and I think you’re seeing frustration about that popping from the seams. Ferguson: Yeah. It’s like an [orgy](https://www.cnn.com/2022/03/28/politics/madison-cawthorn-orgy-invite-cocaine-claim/index.html "undefined") of oppo that they’re dropping on him and I have no idea if he’ll get over the [hump](https://www.cnn.com/2022/05/04/politics/cawthorn-response-opposition-group-video/index.html "undefined"). I’m far from an expert on GOP primaries; they never invite me to the cloak room. Having people like him in Congress is a reminder of the risks that come when your candidates are more suited for right-wing social media than they are for governing a country. **Elliott: Sometimes, the district gets the candidate it deserves. It happens on both sides. There are plenty of Democratic representatives who are legendarily** [**bad**](https://www.brookings.edu/research/making-congress-a-better-place-to-work/ "undefined") **on constituent** [**services**](https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2021/04/the-surge-paul-gosar-worst-congress-member.html "undefined") **and staff** [**treatment**](https://www.politico.com/news/2022/05/06/capitol-house-staff-mistreatment-spartz-00030498 "undefined") **yet still keep coming back.** Ferguson: In the long arc of time, for sure there are some Dem electeds who might not have been good in those jobs. But, in recent years—from the days of Scott [DesJarlais](https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/08/scott-desjarlais-reelection-110028/ "undefined") to the days of Madison [Cawthorn](https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/13/politics/madison-cawthorn-social-media-post/index.html "undefined")—the number of members of Congress who shouldn’t be members of Congress has tipped to one side. **Elliott: Pivoting slightly, though, it seems like they always have enough money. Ethan, you’ve been** [**thinking**](https://imge.com/blockchain-meets-the-beltway-pdf/ "undefined") **a lot lately about crypto’s place in the campaign ecosystem. I’m curious what you’re seeing at the 30,000-foot level on that source of political money. (I admit: I don’t really understand how** [**crypto**](https://www.cnbc.com/2022/05/09/cryptocurrencies-are-tumbling-is-it-time-to-try-the-asset-class-.html "undefined") **is real.)** Eilon: Actual crypto giving, meaning donating Bitcoin or another crypto currency, directly to a campaign is still nascent. Only a handful of committees are accepting it, and there isn’t mass adoption from the political donor base on either side of the aisle at this point. It feels a bit like credit cards in politics in the mid/late ‘90s. Similar to that arc, I think the adoption rate will increase pretty dramatically as the overall tech adoption continues to grow. To me, that’s a _when_ not an _if_. In the meantime, there has been a significant [uptick](https://www.axios.com/2022/05/06/crypto-becomes-a-political-player "undefined") in the political giving coming out of the crypto industry as a whole, as players in that space try to bolster the folks who’ve been champions on the issue. That, and the fervor of its user base, will likely kick off a race—especially in the next presidential nominating contests—for which candidates are the most pro-crypto. **Elliott: So, a** [**subpoena**](https://time.com/6133233/jan-6-commission-findings-congress/ "undefined") **for the** [**potential**](https://time.com/6138561/jan-6-committee-non-complying-lawmakers/ "undefined") **future Speaker isn’t something you see every day. What the heck happens next?** Ferguson: A live look at the Minority Leader’s [reaction](https://giphy.com/gifs/XEo7YJHUeplXa "undefined"). Eilon: I’m pretty sure what happens next is Democrats lose the House. Ferguson: Could be. Kevin McCarthy testifying under oath isn’t going to increase—or decrease—the likelihood that Democrats control the House next year. But he’s spent more than a year trying to avoid this moment which leads to a reasonable question of what he’s trying to hide. Then again, the new Jan. 6 [tapes](https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/mccarthy-defends-republicans-leaked-jan-recordings/story?id=84347455 "undefined") may have already given away some of his secrets before he has to go under oath. Eilon: My high-confidence prediction: Dem operatives are on TV afterward saying everything McCarthy said and did was wrong and bad, GOP operatives are on TV saying everything he did was right and great. The American people at home mute the volume and go back to wondering how Joe Biden, with Dems in control of Congress, managed to make it harder to put food on the table and gas in their cars at a [rate](https://www.nbcnews.com/business/economy/inflation-numbers-april-2022-cpi-data-rcna28194 "undefined") unseen in 40 years. Ferguson: There’s a growing group of voters who are worried about the criminality in this conspiracy and about the long term [plot](https://time.com/6176327/democrats-abortion-roe-statehouses-midterms/ "undefined") to overturn elections. It fits into the larger pattern of how the GOP has changed. It’s no longer about a [City on a Hill](https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/01/is-america-still-the-shining-city-on-a-hill/617474/ "undefined"), it’s about a [mob](https://time.com/6137871/january-6-partisan-divide/ "undefined") of militants. There’s a reason the GOP didn’t want this investigation and have been consistently trying to [obstruct](https://time.com/6082950/pelosi-mcarthy-january-6-committee/ "undefined") it—because they’re scared about what it reveals. **Elliott: Gents, this has been some amusing exchanges. One last question: how are things actually looking in Pennsylvania? I just watched Hannity all but beg his viewers in Pennsylvania to consider general election electability—during an interview with contenders polling markedly in the second tier. Are Keystone State voters really headed toward nominating someone with a record of, let’s say,** [**divisive rhetoric**](https://www.cnn.com/2022/05/12/politics/kfile-kathy-barnette-bigoted-statements/index.html "undefined")**? Senate minority leader Mitch McConnell already has a Herschel Walker** [**problem**](https://www.washingtonpost.com/magazine/2022/05/04/herschel-walker-georgia-football-senate/ "undefined") **in Georgia. Could he also have a Kathy Barnette** [**problem**](https://www.cnn.com/2022/05/13/politics/kathy-barnette-pennsylvania-senate-primary/index.html "undefined") **in Pennsylvania?** Eilon: The establishment media are always quick to [decry](https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/05/13/barnette-maga-establishment-trump/ "undefined") outsiders who don’t fit the preconception of what a candidate from one party or the other is supposed to be. Sometimes they’re right, sometimes they’re wrong, but it seems as though voters are more open to people who don’t conform to what they’ve been told to expect than they have been in the past. In any event, midterms are about the direction of the country as much as anything else. With how things look right now I wouldn’t describe McConnell as the one with the problem. Ferguson: Ethan’s right on this one. Too often candidates who are seen in the Beltway as unelectable end up getting elected. Let me remind you of a gentleman named Donald Trump. It does seem like the GOP is freaking out about [Barnette](https://www.axios.com/2022/05/12/gop-panics-pa-senate-wild-card-kathy-barnette "undefined") at this point, but I’m not sure she’s more of a problem than [Oz](https://nymag.com/intelligencer/article/kathy-barnette-surges-pennsylvania.html "undefined") and others. In truth, several of the GOP candidates in Pennsylvania are pretty far outside the mainstream, especially in the vote-rich [suburbs](https://www.inquirer.com/politics/election/philadelphia-suburbs-2020-election-20201129.html "undefined"). One of their real roadblocks to winning the Senate is the good chance Democrats have to flip the Pennsylvania Senate seat this cycle. **Elliott: Thanks so much for your work on this.** ```json [{"@context":"https://schema.org","@type":"NewsArticle","@id":"https://time.com/6176681/the-back-booth-an-orgy-of-oppo-on-madison-cawthorn-an-unquestioned-aid-package-and-an-unprecedented-subpoena/","mainEntityOfPage":{"@type":"WebPage","@id":"https://time.com/6176681/the-back-booth-an-orgy-of-oppo-on-madison-cawthorn-an-unquestioned-aid-package-and-an-unprecedented-subpoena/"},"headline":"The Back Booth: An ‘Orgy of Oppo' on Madison Cawthorn and an Unprecedented Subpoena","datePublished":"2022-05-14T17:00:44.000Z","dateModified":"2026-02-24T14:15:32.817Z","description":"Welcome to The Back Booth, a weekend edition of The D.C. 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