--- title: Ai Weiwei Speaks on Refugee Crisis and Human Flow Documentary description: The artist and activist spoke with TIME Editor-in-Chief Edward Felsenthal ahead of a screening of his film 'Human Flow' in Aspen. canonical: https://time.com/5347870/ai-weiwei-human-flow/ author: Mahita Gajanan article:opinion: false article:content_tier: free article:published_time: 2018-07-25T17:20:07.000Z article:modified_time: 2023-12-12T18:34:13.000Z article:section: Entertainment og:title: 'They're Being Forced Out.' Ai Weiwei Discusses the International Refugee Crisis and His Documentary 'Human Flow' og:description: The artist and activist spoke at a screening of his film og:url: https://time.com/5347870/ai-weiwei-human-flow/ og:site_name: TIME og:image: https://static.time.com/v3/assets/bltea6093859af6183b/blt356bf79a7b54b211/698936357cdbac467bd5d7f5/mg_7469.jpg?branch=production&width=1200&quality=75&auto=webp&crop=16:9 og:image:width: 5616 og:image:height: 3159 og:image:alt: ai-weiwei-aspen og:type: article twitter:card: summary_large_image twitter:title: 'They're Being Forced Out.' Ai Weiwei Discusses the International Refugee Crisis and His Documentary 'Human Flow' twitter:description: The artist and activist spoke at a screening of his film twitter:image: https://static.time.com/v3/assets/bltea6093859af6183b/blt356bf79a7b54b211/698936357cdbac467bd5d7f5/mg_7469.jpg?branch=production&width=1200&quality=75&auto=webp&crop=16:9 ---  # 'They're Being Forced Out.' 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Terms and conditions apply. * Savings buckets are a feature of Ally Bank's Savings Account. * No ATM fees from Ally Bank at Allpoint and Moneypass ATMs plus we reimburse for fees charged by other ATM owners nationwide up to $10 per statement cycle. * Early direct deposit offers eligible direct deposits up to two days sooner. * Spending buckets are a feature of Ally Bank's Spending Account. ## Video: 'They're Being Forced Out.' Ai Weiwei Discusses the International Refugee Crisis and His Documentary Human Flow [Watch (HLS stream): 'They're Being Forced Out.' Ai Weiwei Discusses the International Refugee Crisis and His Documentary Human Flow](https://cdn.jwplayer.com/manifests/X143lyEA.m3u8) (29:06)  _Published 2018-07-25. Ai Weiwei spoke about the international refugee crisis and the influences behind the documentary Human Flow in a new interview._ by [Mahita Gajanan](https://time.com/author/mahita-gajanan/) ## Mahita Gajanan Gajanan is an editor at TIME. Updated: Dec 12, 2023 6:34 PM UTCPublished: Jul 25, 2018 5:20 PM UTC by [Mahita Gajanan](https://time.com/author/mahita-gajanan/) ## Mahita Gajanan Gajanan is an editor at TIME. Updated: Dec 12, 2023 6:34 PM UTCPublished: Jul 25, 2018 5:20 PM UTC [Ai Weiwei](http://time.com/4979256/ai-weiwei-new-york-exhibiton/) spoke about the international refugee crisis and the influences behind the documentary _Human Flow_ in a new interview. Speaking with TIME Editor-in-Chief Edward Felsenthal following a screening of the film outside in Aspen, Colo., the Chinese artist and activist talked about the heartbreaking effects of seeing how the number of refugees from all over the world has multiplied in recent years to [25.4 million](http://www.unhcr.org/globaltrends2017/) as of 2017. “They all have one clear factor—none of those refugees willingly leave their home,” he said during the discussion. “They have to. They’re being forced out.”  Anderson Ranch Arts Center _Human Flow_, shot on iPhones and drones, among other technologies, tells a story over one year throughout 23 countries—including Afghanistan, Bangladesh, Greece, Italy, Kenya, Mexico and Turkey—in an effort to understand how the refugee crisis has spread throughout the world. The interview was in conjunction with Ai being recognized this month with the International Artist Award from the Anderson Ranch Arts Center, a more than 50-year-old arts community located about 20 minutes outside of Aspen and known for its 10-week residency programs and more than 140 summer workshops. **Correction, July 26** _The original version of this story misstated the number of refugees in 2017\. It is 25.4 million, not 68.5, which is the total number of forcibly displaced people worldwide._ ## Transcript I guess I wanted to start by asking you if in your work and in your travels you see anywhere cause for optimism? [ BLANK_AUDIO ] It's very hard when you are facing those people and see their conditions. Then you try to imagine why so many and or also why everywhere its globally, not only Asia but, also Africa, Middle East, and now South America. The situation become so dramatic. You know, talk about why me. Things in the film that Bangladesh only have 200, 000 refugees, now come to 900, 000 refugees. Suddenly 700 southern refugees accumulating in there. And also you talk about Venezuela Now you talk about Yemen. It's all those nations still produce a lot of refugees. It's like every two seconds there's one person being forced out of their home And during our film there's some of these people already become homeless or stateless. So the situation getting so extreme, not only because a regional problem but are also climate change and that's what's going to be. From scientific studies going to be to produce much more refugees in 2050 and our treepost, what we have today, so it's I think. I know many people also think human terrain or Isis in our time. 68 million refugees A 8. 5 million, 68. 5 million now. When we finish the film, it's only 65 million, so yes, you know. So it's another. So it's, it's number goes up fast, and but they all have one. clear, clear factor is none of those refugees willing to leave their home. Their home could be very poor, very unthinkably poor, but no, none of them want to leave their home. It's only they have to, they're being forced out. If they have to worry about their own children or, [ UNKNOWN ] mostly our children and women. And then they have to just leave, give up everything. Not even to think about their future. But just to seek for safe ground. [ BLANK_AUDIO ] The headlines in this country focus so much on, [ BLANK_AUDIO ] The US border with Mexico and the refugee crisis in Europe. But as we were talking about Before we came in, Europe is really a tiny portion of the overall global problem. So tiny, it's around 2 % of the refugees actually landed in Europe, and Europe is the richest land and the US And that doesn't bear any responsibility I should say. The difficulty, for even those refugees that landed in Europe. And less, I think in Germany, less than five percent has been really integrated, or so called integrated. Because it takes them maybe a lifetime to be integrated. [ BLANK_AUDIO ] I had planned to ask this toward the end. But as we talk about the numbers, and I'm sure everybody here watching the film, it's a top of mind question. What can, [ BLANK_AUDIO ] Ordinary people We could talk about politicians and the rise of Nationalism later but as people around the world see your film, privileged communities in particular, what can ordinary people do to help First, so- called refugee crisis, the human crisis. Those people, those crisis are made by human. There's always reason behind, Why someone have to give up their home, have to go to an unknown future? And they are ordinary people. Nobody can be more ordinary than those refugees. If we cannot do anything to help those people, and who's going to help them? I mean, how can they help themselves? I mean, there is no any possibilities. And he even [ INAUDIBLE ] their own voice [ INAUDIBLE ] you can [ INAUDIBLE ] support any kinda legal protection and basically those people are [ INAUDIBLE ] and, also has no any kind of status. Most of the people even they were called refugees they would never get a refugee status. Because most states like Turkey and Libya and Jordan, they will not call them refugees. They call them guests. So But to those guys, it can be three generations in their country. So that means they don't care to their rights as a refugee, you know, because internationally, if you call yourself a refugee, you're somewhat being protected by certain rules, but They are invincible, you know? They're there, but they're not existing. Your father, a poet, was persecuted during the cultural revolution in China. You spent a portion of your childhood in internal exile. In China, [ BLANK_AUDIO ] Now live abroad. [ BLANK_AUDIO ] How have your personal experiences, your childhood, how has that shaped the way you see this crisis, and the film? Maybe my childhood experience Or even at firms now, as someone has to escape from this, China's political situation. Maybe I draw some special interest or attention for me to pay attention to the people who's unfortunate. And I think as a refugee, or someone who's seen similar type of condition, what you are seeking is not really, besides safety, is not really money or, but residency Understanding you know to people really want to have some kind of understanding about their situation and which is most lacking when the states are [ UNKNOWN ] in the politicians. When they're dealing refugees they think them, [ BLANK_AUDIO ] Somehow inhuman. But if you really meet them you see every of them just like me or like you. They worried about their children, they tried find a job which they can bring Money or bread home. To be respected, you know, to work. And they want to live peacefully. Essential human dignity, they try to achieve. And if we don't give them this opportunity, so who we think we are and what kind of society we can think that we are living in so So that's why I think it's not really a refugee crisis but a humanity crisis. Its a very intimate scene in the film where you are cutting the hair of one of the refugees, and I wondered how you think about How you thought about your own role in the film and boundaries or decisions to interact versus show? When we start this film, I never really think I want to make a film. I was standing on the shore in [ UNKNOWN ] with my son. And I told them we would have a vacation, but actually I really wanted to know how they approach the European men, and how they [ UNKNOWN ] this condition and how people will receive them. So when I see the situation, when I was standing there [ UNKNOWN ] women, children come down [ UNKNOWN ] language. Obviously, they don't belong to this land. And also most shocking is on Europe On the shore. There's no government agency trying to help them, except volunteers and some NHCR people. So you see, those people have been going through such a danger in their life, take this most difficult journey but nobody really Trying to help them. So I said that maybe I should have moved my studio from Germany, from Berlin, to Leftwich, to Scotland to make a documentary to record this part of history. And, also for me this journey started to About the learning, about the global politics, about the human conditions in today's situation. That's how I start to make this film. And so that film come from my personal curiosity. Want to know more, and because I have been staying in China for last two decades, and basically the **** same Chinese condition, human rights or freedom of speech, but not much about global condition. So it's opportunity for me to learn. And I learned so much more than I can imagine about it. And in the film during the editing, the editor of the film shows what I have only imagined there. I never had the intention to do so, and you can see those images [ UNKNOWN ] from some not very high quality [ UNKNOWN ]. Sometimes colleagues [ UNKNOWN ] iPhone or my own iPhone [ UNKNOWN ]. So by doing that I think I give this film a line of narrating The story has come from one personal perspective. It's not a historical journal, or some kind of professor did some research, artists get involved. And I should say, truthfully report what [ UNKNOWN ] which shocked me, or make me thinking. You mentioned iPhones. I was struck, both through the film, but also in the coverage of the refugee crisis over the last few years, of the The role of the smart phone, does make this current, this state of being a refugee, different than it was after World War Two, or even fifteen years ago. What impact do you think? It has had the ability to see people back in the old country, or communicate in ways that refugees, not even all that long ago, couldn't have imagined. And today's very different. You see refugees come to the shore first, and they. They unwrapped from this journey, say iPhone. They would turn on the iPhone to call their home or their friends. Or they're here to say I'm here, you can see the film, the recharge station is most popular location in the refugee camp. He had people say you know, why you have no, basically they're leaving a very dark situation. So the iPhone is like a little window or the [ UNKNOWN ] to see a sight. So it changes so much, and also They have to deal with the kind of internal net to tell even what to or where to go. Or what is a possibility or possible road to their destiny. The scene with the tiger, I thought, was remarkable. The caretaker there says, no one says no to this animal to have a better life. And four countries cooperate to get the tiger out and I mean, I know you're concerned about the rights of animals as well the rights of people. But I wondered, was your point, in some way, that we're treating animals better than humans? Yes, there's several occasions, we used the animal image in this human [ UNKNOWN ]. And [ UNKNOWN ] whatever this so called human crisis, the animal is the one sacrifice the much worst condition than the human. In every war zone [ UNKNOWN ] people [ UNKNOWN ] animals And they suddenly become useless, and they think life is worth nothing. So [ UNKNOWN ] animal are living [ UNKNOWN ] in a zoo and the rest animal already dead. They're dried, so I see all those corpses and it's so horrifying, it just and [ UNKNOWN ] still alive with a little bit of chicken bone or stuff. We think, this tiger is so beautiful and maybe she'll be risk to be so we have connections with this for palms its an animal sanctuary organization. So they made effort talk to Israelis, [ UNKNOWN ] talk to Hamas, talk to Jordan And actually, the tiger went to Africa. So it's happy, having a happy life in Africa. But then you see in Iraq or in Venezuela the people, the tiger or the other animals in the zoo start The zoo nurses [ UNKNOWN ] animals with other animals they have. Because simply they cannot handle the situation, and this happens everywhere, so. If Hamas and Israel can work together to get a tiger freed from Gaza I'm sure if they want to get anything, to set up better condition, they can easily do it, it's just some kind of political struggle they have there which stops them to To even consider it in a sense. You live in, when you're not traveling which I suppose is not often, Berlin. My Studio is in Berlin and I have been outside of China for 3 years, almost 3 years. And that during those three years I traveled to 150 destinations. Many, many locations, I'm always on the road. What brought you or brought your studio. Germany, a country with a complex history with refugees to say the least, what brought you to Berlin? Chairman has been, Chairman politicians and also public, has strong demanding on human rights, maybe because that's historical problem that they are very much, they are very sensitive about [ UNKNOWN ] issues so every time they come to China, they talk to leaders [ UNKNOWN ] situation. So maybe that also contribute to the final release [ UNKNOWN ] condition. And so they offer me a professorship and so I had a studio there So maybe all those is why I went to there. What is the Murkel obviously has to take some measures restricting immigration to save her government. Does that make sense to you, do you support what she's doing reversing some of what she did? I think after all Macron is still our strongest politician with a principle and especially defending human rights maybe because she's come from east Germany. She understand the situation better. But also as a politician she has to balance out, otherwise her party will have no space even in ruling the as a government, so. Now they are all a bit backwards. They're trying to send the refugees already in Germany back to, [ BLANK_AUDIO ] Greece and Italy. which is ridiculous, you know? It is, talk about EU and us, as an entity, you cannot just send those people to Italy, or Greece. It's not possible even. Has the climate for refugees in Germany worsened in the last couple of years? The climate for refugees worsened globally, not only Germany. All the nations start to build borders. And there's over 70 borders now compared to the Berlin Wall come down. That's only like a dozen border. So now the situation is really getting much worse for people. So tell us a little about your Your recent trip to Bangladesh to the camp there. I know the concern about the rains coming and monsoon season. Yeah, Bangladesh is really unsinkable. Especially if you [ INAUDIBLE ] people. In this very small area, and all the refugees under, they are waiting there for some kind of decision can be set up by the nation, Myanmar. Where are they never even have that citicients status and all their state list people and they internationally say not much has been done more or helping this people they're very on their community. Very, very innocent community. They're, they just stays there and the situation went so bad, so extreme in past two years. You also spent some time with elephants while you were there? Yes, I, it's a story. The elephants in that refugee location, there was 60 elephants inhabited in that wild life, and one refugee settled in there stopped the elephants Natural pass. You know, every year they have to pass the area. Suddenly they see so many people sat over there. They still have to pass it, so they crashed with those refugees and they killed Less than a thousand. So you see, the complex in the refugees. And elephants there, also kind of like refugees. Myanmar used to employ some of those elephants for work. You know, in the woods to pull those trunks and locks is a very heavy job. So, all those elephants are being trained as labor. Now that Laos has stopped people from cutting those trees, suddenly the elephants would become jobless. All those very ironic citation but it's a total disaster. What's next for you? What's the next project or projects? You're never only doing one. I am never finished one project in my life. So, I don't even know what's next. [ LAUGH ] How are we doing on time? We're good. Back to the film. The ending with the life jackets, Piled high, reminiscent at least to me of the work you did after the earthquake, with the backpacks. Why did you end it there? What happened? Why did you make that decision? After you make a film like this you. Ultimately feel you're powerless. Not much you can do. So the film always remain as an evidence of the time. It's some kind of archiving, so, where we look at this century or the time. It's like we look at the World War II when so many refugees being pushed away by so many nations and there's so much bad relating to this. And callous or ignorance And todays not much changed actually, we are so prosper, under so much advancing, but we're still being emotionless and also we Or dare even to ask those questions about what kind of role we're performing in today's politics. But there's also very crucial questions every individual have to ask. [ BLANK_AUDIO ] Talk a little bit about, [ BLANK_AUDIO ] The connection, but for you, but I'm also interested in how you look at art generally between activism and art. [ BLANK_AUDIO ] I've read some of what you've said being written about the role of Activism in Chinese art, but is there? How do you see the value of art that isn't necessarily built around, speaking to social or political activism? My situtation, even my Father's situation, as a poet All those struggles relating to freedom of speech or human rights are a real struggle in the nation, like in China. And because those. Qualities I've been seeing as most dangerous to this positarian society, to openly discuss matters under to openly to be associated with the social political struggle. And but in the West I think somehow a period of time it developed an idea, art for art's sake. I think that's a very political idea to separate art from the human struggle. And then to separate aesthetics from a moral and a philosophical- It's a statement in itself. Yeah, a statement in itself, is very political. So I don't, I cannot think a real art can separate from a real activism. Because art is about the definition of our emotions and our aesthetics and they always can be questionable [ UNKNOWN ] and it's never a safe ground. One last question, Who's influenced you as an artist, what other artist have influenced your art? I'm still searching for someone to impress me. [ LAUGH ] Great. [ APPLAUSE ] Great, okay, that's a great ending. [ APPLAUSE ] Thank you. [ LAUGH ] [ APPLAUSE ] Thank you. Very much. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. All right. [ BLANK_AUDIO ] ```json [{"@context":"https://schema.org","@type":"NewsArticle","@id":"https://time.com/5347870/ai-weiwei-human-flow/","mainEntityOfPage":{"@type":"WebPage","@id":"https://time.com/5347870/ai-weiwei-human-flow/"},"headline":"'They're Being Forced Out.' 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