--- title: How to Be Someone People Love to Talk to description: Make sure the other person walks away better for having met you canonical: https://time.com/3722418/become-someone-people-love-talk/ author: Eric Barker article:opinion: true article:content_tier: free article:published_time: 2015-03-02T05:01:53.000Z article:modified_time: 2026-08-04T07:43:14.284Z article:section: Ideas og:title: How to Be Someone People Love to Talk to og:description: Make sure the other person walks away better for having met you og:url: https://time.com/3722418/become-someone-people-love-talk/ og:site_name: TIME og:image: https://static.time.com/v3/assets/bltea6093859af6183b/blt59bdcc627c570fcb/698780f355a85908cca86020/gettyimages_462113303-copy.jpg?branch=production&width=1200&quality=75&auto=webp&crop=16:9 og:image:width: 5162 og:image:height: 2904 og:image:alt: coworkers-discussion og:type: article twitter:card: summary_large_image twitter:title: How to Be Someone People Love to Talk to twitter:description: Make sure the other person walks away better for having met you twitter:image: https://static.time.com/v3/assets/bltea6093859af6183b/blt59bdcc627c570fcb/698780f355a85908cca86020/gettyimages_462113303-copy.jpg?branch=production&width=1200&quality=75&auto=webp&crop=16:9 ---  # How to Be Someone People Love to Talk To > Sponsored content. 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Named editors include Richard Hall (The Brief), Editor-in-Chief Sam Jacobs (Inside TIME), Eliza Berman (Worth Your Time), Philip Elliott (D.C. Brief), Justin Worland (Future Proof) and Harry Booth (In the Loop). Health Matters is written by TIME's health desk. #### How do I sign up for a TIME newsletter? Go to time.com/newsletters, choose the newsletters you want and enter your email address. There is no cost and no subscription requirement. ### Sources * TIME Newsletters: [time.com/newsletters](/c/time-nl-network-2026q3/newsletters?i=7191688c-b102-4da9-872b-4ffa7ab28186&cr=time-nl-network-2026q3-v1) ## Video: The Nantucket Project: How Storytelling is Getting in The Way of Your Success [Watch (HLS stream): The Nantucket Project: How Storytelling is Getting in The Way of Your Success](https://cdn.jwplayer.com/manifests/HSYDj99Q.m3u8) (17:44)  _Published 2015-02-17. The Nantucket Project: How Storytelling is Getting in The Way of Your Success_ by [Eric Barker](https://time.com/author/eric-barker/) ## Eric Barker Mar 2, 2015 5:01 AM UTC  Coworkers in discussion at conference room table Coworkers in discussion at conference room table Getty Images by [Eric Barker](https://time.com/author/eric-barker/) ## Eric Barker Mar 2, 2015 5:01 AM UTC When do we really learn good conversation skills? Well, we don’t. We’re just kind of expected to pick them up… And we wonder why people aren’t better communicators. How can you be that person people love to talk to? I’ve posted a lot of research and expert interviews on the subject so let’s round up the info and make it actionable. In this post you’ll learn: * How to make a good first impression. * How to be a great listener. * What the best subjects to discuss are. * How to prevent awkward silences. * How to politely end a conversation. And a lot more. C’mon, let’s chat. ## How To Make A Good First Impression First impressions [really are a big deal](http://www.bakadesuyo.com/2010/03/are-first-impressions-really-that-big-a-deal/) and talking to new people can be daunting, no doubt. What’s the answer? It’s simple, really. Research shows that if you expect people will like you, [they probably will](http://www.bakadesuyo.com/2011/07/a-quick-easy-trick-for-getting-people-to-like/): --- > “” --- Don’t take the cliche advice and “just be yourself.” Put [some effort](http://www.bakadesuyo.com/2012/05/whats-an-absurdly-easy-way-to-improve-all-you/) into being warm and open. Ironically, studies show [putting your best foot forward actually reveals the real you](http://www.bakadesuyo.com/2011/05/does-putting-your-best-self-forward-reveal-yo/): --- > “” --- Smiles are powerful and [make you more attractive](http://www.bakadesuyo.com/2011/11/whats-the-easiest-way-to-make-yourself-more-a/). From [Dale Carnegie](http://www.bakadesuyo.com/2013/01/truth-dale-carnegies-how-win-friends-influence-people/) to [peer-reviewed studies](http://www.bakadesuyo.com/2011/11/whats-the-easiest-way-to-make-yourself-more-a/), everyone says smiles matter. (In fact, to increase their power, [smile slower](http://www.bakadesuyo.com/2011/09/is-there-an-easy-way-to-improve-your-smile/).) FBI behavior expert [Robin Dreeke](http://www.bakadesuyo.com/2013/11/rapport-building-skills/) recommends speaking slowly. Via [It’s Not All About “Me”: The Top Ten Techniques for Building Quick Rapport with Anyone](http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0060YIBLK/ref=as%5Fli%5Fss%5Ftl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B0060YIBLK&linkCode=as2&tag=spacforrent-20): --- > “” --- How can you strategically make a good impression? From the outset, frame the conversation with a few well-rehearsed sentences regarding how you want to be perceived. This will end up being the structure the other person forms their memories around. Via [Choke: What the Secrets of the Brain Reveal About Getting It Right When You Have To](http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1416596178/ref=as%5Fli%5Fss%5Ftl?ie=UTF8&tag=spacforrent-20): --- > “” --- (For more FBI techniques that will make people like you, click [here](http://www.bakadesuyo.com/2014/10/how-to-get-people-to-like-you/).) So you made a good first impression. You might be wondering what to do next. Hold on there, partner. More important is what not to do. ## Stop Trying To Impress Yes, we all want to [get respect](http://www.bakadesuyo.com/2014/09/how-to-get-respect/) but try too hard and you can come off as a jerk. Trying to sound smart [makes you look stupid](http://www.bakadesuyo.com/2011/05/does-trying-to-look-smart-make-us-seem-stupid/). Studies show [name-dropping doesn’t work](http://www.bakadesuyo.com/2010/08/does-name-dropping-work/). Research from Harvard shows people would rather work with a lovable fool than a competent jerk — [even if they won’t admit it](http://www.bakadesuyo.com/2011/12/who-would-you-rather-have-on-your-team-a-love/): In [Click: The Magic of Instant Connections](http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0385529066/ref=as%5Fli%5Fss%5Ftl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=0385529066&linkCode=as2&tag=spacforrent-20) Ori Brafman and Rom Brafman explore how people connect and give some solid insights. What struck me most was their emphasis on **_vulnerability_**_._ Via [Click: The Magic of Instant Connections:](http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0385529066/ref=as%5Fli%5Fss%5Ftl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=0385529066&linkCode=as2&tag=spacforrent-20) --- > “” --- (For more on how to win every argument, click [here](http://www.bakadesuyo.com/2013/09/how-to-win-every-argument/).) So you’re not trying to impress people. What should you do? ## Encourage People To Talk About Themselves People who have trouble making conversation always say the same thing: “_But what do I talk about?_” Wrong question. **The right question is “** **_How do I get them talking about themselves?_** **“** It [gives their brain as much pleasure as food or money](http://www.bakadesuyo.com/2012/05/what-gives-your-brain-as-much-pleasure-as-foo/): --- > “” --- And when they open up, don’t judge. Nobody — including you — likes to feel judged. FBI behavior expert Robin Dreeke’s #1 piece of advice: “Seek someone else’s thoughts and opinions without judging them.” Here’s [Robin](http://www.bakadesuyo.com/2014/10/how-to-get-people-to-like-you/): --- > “” --- Suspend your ego. Avoid correcting people or saying anything that could be interpreted as one-upmanship. Via [It’s Not All About “Me”: The Top Ten Techniques for Building Quick Rapport with Anyone](http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0060YIBLK/ref=as%5Fli%5Fss%5Ftl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B0060YIBLK&linkCode=as2&tag=spacforrent-20): --- > “” --- (To learn on how to talk down angry people, click [here](http://www.bakadesuyo.com/2014/12/difficult-conversations/).) Everyone loves a good listener but most people are terrible at listening. What do they do wrong? ## Listen — And Make Sure They Know You’re Listening The difference is you want to engage in “[active listening](http://www.bakadesuyo.com/2013/01/interview-negotiation-secrets-learn-top-fbi-hostage-negotiator/).” Just keeping quiet and nodding isn’t enough. [FBI hostage negotiators](http://www.bakadesuyo.com/2013/06/hostage-negotiation/) use a number of techniques to show kidnappers they are really paying attention: * **Mirroring**: Repeat the last 1-3 words the person just said as a question. (Yes, it’s that simple.) * **Paraphrasing**: Repeat what they just said in your own words. * **Labeling**: Put a name on what they say they’re feeling. “Sounds like you’re feeling pressured.” A little game I like to play is “Can I summarize what the person just said to their satisfaction?” If you repeat back the gist of what they communicated and they respond, “Exactly” you’re doing great. (To learn FBI hostage negotiation techniques, click [here](http://www.bakadesuyo.com/2013/06/hostage-negotiation/).) Of course, you do need to chime in here and there. But when? ### 5 Horrible Habits You Need to Stop Right Now  Do Not Email First Thing in the Morning or Last Thing at Night “The former scrambles your priorities and all your plans for the day and the latter just gives you insomnia,” says Ferriss, who insists “email can wait until 10am” or after you check off at least one substantive to-do list item. Chris Pecoraro—Getty Images  Do Not Agree to Meetings or Calls With No Clear Agenda or End Time “If the desired outcome is defined clearly… and there’s an agenda listing topics–questions to cover–no meeting or call should last more than 30 minutes,” claims Ferriss, so “request them in advance so you can ‘best prepare and make good use of our time together.'” Sam Edwards—Getty Images/Caiaimage  Do Not Check Email Constantly Batch it and check it only periodically at set times (Ferriss goes for twice a day). Your inbox is analogous to a cocaine pellet dispenser, says Ferriss. Don’t be an addict. Tools like strategic use of the auto responder and Boomerang can help. Jetta Productions—Getty Images  Do Not Carry a Digital Leash 24/7 At least one day a week leave you smartphone somewhere where you can’t get easy access to it. If you’re gasping, you’re probably the type of person that most needs to do kick this particular habit. by nacoki ( MEDIA ARC )—Getty Images/Flickr RF  Do Not Let People Ramble Sounds harsh, but it’s necessary, Ferriss believes. “Small talk takes up big time,” he says, so when people start to tell you about their weekends, cut them off politely with something like “I’m in the middle of something, but what’s up?” But be aware, not everyone agrees with this one (and certainly not in every situation), and you may want to pay particularly close attention to norms around chit chat when traveling internationally. Reza Estakhrian—Getty Images ## Emphasize Similarity There is extensive research that [we like people who are like us](http://www.bakadesuyo.com/2012/05/whats-the-key-to-being-liked-and-being-more-i/). In almost every conceivable way, from [background](http://www.bakadesuyo.com/2011/09/whats-an-easy-way-to-get-others-to-agree-to-h/) to [word choice](http://www.bakadesuyo.com/2011/08/what-are-the-first-words-you-should-say-in-a/), emphasizing similarity improves social relations. When salespeople were told to mimic the body language of listeners it was rarely noticed but sales increased by 20%. Via [Honest Signals: How They Shape Our World](http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0262515121/ref=as%5Fli%5Fss%5Ftl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=0262515121&linkCode=as2&tag=spacforrent-20&l=as2&o=1&a=0262515121): --- > “” --- (For more on how to emphasize similarity, click [here](http://www.bakadesuyo.com/2012/05/whats-the-key-to-being-liked-and-being-more-i/).) What else should you do? ## Questions Are Powerful What are the best type of questions, in general? Ask open-ended questions. Nothing “yes/no” or that can be answered in just a word or two. Via [It’s Not All About “Me”: The Top Ten Techniques for Building Quick Rapport with Anyone](http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0060YIBLK/ref=as%5Fli%5Fss%5Ftl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B0060YIBLK&linkCode=as2&tag=spacforrent-20): --- > “” --- What question should you always have ready? We all face challenges and we like to talk about them. So that’s what to ask about. FBI behavior expert [Robin Dreeke explains](http://www.bakadesuyo.com/2014/10/how-to-get-people-to-like-you/): --- > “” --- (To learn other questions that create the strongest bonds with people, click [here](http://www.bakadesuyo.com/is-there-a-shortcut-to-bonding-with-a-romanti).) Okay, you have to talk at some point, right? (Please don’t talk about the weather. Ugh.) So what’s the best thing to discuss? ## Travel, Compliments And Advice Richard Wiseman studied which topics worked best on first dates. Discussing [travel](http://www.bakadesuyo.com/2011/06/what-should-you-talk-about-on-a-first-date-wh/) was number one. How do you make people feel good without being slimy? [Offer sincere compliments](http://www.bakadesuyo.com/2012/09/what-two-things-can-help-you-win-over-someone/). Shockingly, even [insincere flattery works](http://www.bakadesuyo.com/2011/02/does-insincere-flattery-work/): --- > “” --- But compliments can be one note. What provokes a deeper discussion? Stanford professor [Jeffrey Pfeffer](http://www.bakadesuyo.com/2013/04/interview-stanford-mba-school-professor-teaches-secret-promotions-raises-power/), Wharton professor [Adam Grant](http://www.bakadesuyo.com/2013/04/interview-wharton-business-school-professor-teaches-approach-give/), persuasion expert [Robert Cialdini](http://www.bakadesuyo.com/2013/06/robert-cialdini-influence/) and many others have all [recommended asking for advice](http://www.bakadesuyo.com/2012/09/what-two-things-can-help-you-win-over-someone/) as a powerful way to influence others and warm them to you. I love this method because I get to learn something and the other person gets to feel like an expert. Everyone’s happy. (For more on the science of making friends, click [here](http://www.bakadesuyo.com/2013/01/truth-dale-carnegies-how-win-friends-influence-people/).) So you know what to say. But how should you say it? ## Arouse Emotion Many people make the mistake of thinking conversation is just information exchange. That’s missing the most important part. Think emotion. Professor Stephen Ceci taught his class the way he had for the past 20 years, replicating nearly everything imaginable — except he started speaking with more [enthusiasm](http://www.bakadesuyo.com/2013/12/do-not-curb-your-enthusiasm/). What happened? His student ratings went up — in every single category. He was seen as more knowledgeable, more tolerant, more accessible, more organized. Students said they learned more. They felt the grading was fairer. They even said the _textbook_ was better. Via [The Tell: The Little Clues That Reveal Big Truths about Who We Are](http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00BKRW51E/?tag=spacforrent-20): (For more on how to be funny, click [here](http://www.bakadesuyo.com/2013/11/how-to-be-funny/).) Time to get to the scary stuff. How do you avoid awkward silences? ## The Conversation Must Progress Sometime conversations fizzle and it’s reaaaaaaally awkward. Why does this happen? What can we do about it? Conversations have a natural progression, much like a relationship. There’s a [hierarchy of vulnerability](http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0385529066/ref=as%5Fli%5Fss%5Ftl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=0385529066&linkCode=as2&tag=spacforrent-20) in the types of communication we have, each one being more open and more likely to lead to a solid connection: * **Phatic**: These statements have no emotional content: _“How are you?”_ * **Factual**: These share information, maybe personal information, but no strong opinions or emotions are involved: _“I live in New York.”_ * **Evaluative**: These statements show opinions, but they’re not core beliefs: _“That movie was really funny.”_ * **Gut-level**: Here’s where it heats up. The first three are thought-oriented. Gut-level communication is emotionally based. It’s personal, says something deeper about who you are and is focused on feelings: _“I’m sad that you’re not here.”_ * **Peak**: The most emotionally vulnerable level. Peak statements share your innermost feelings. “…feelings that are deeply revealing and carry the most risk in terms how the other person will respond.” These statements are rare, even with people we are very close to: _“I guess at heart I’m terrified I’m going to lose you.”_ The authors of [Click](http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0385529066/ref=as%5Fli%5Fss%5Ftl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=0385529066&linkCode=as2&tag=spacforrent-20) spell it out clearly: **_“We can help to create magical connections simply by elevating the language we use from the phatic to the peak level.”_** (For FBI methods that can help you negotiate lower bills, click [here](http://www.bakadesuyo.com/2015/01/lower-your-bills/).) There’s one more moment that can be awkward: how do you end a conversation nicely and politely? ## How To Say Goodbye There are a number of phrases that can politely signal the end of a chat. It’s smart to memorize one or two of these. Via [The Art of Conversation: A Guided Tour of a Neglected Pleasure](http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001P9O38A/ref=as%5Fli%5Fss%5Ftl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B001P9O38A&linkCode=as2&tag=spacforrent-20): --- > “” --- (For more tips on how to master the art of conversation, click [here](http://www.bakadesuyo.com/2013/10/mastering-the-art-of-conversation/).) Okay, that’s a lot of info. What’s the most important thing to keep in mind if you forget everything else? ## Sum Up What does FBI behavior expert [Robin Dreeke](http://www.bakadesuyo.com/2013/11/rapport-building-skills/) say is the best attitude to take when trying to build rapport? **_Make sure the other person walks away better for having met you._** Via [It’s Not All About “Me”: The Top Ten Techniques for Building Quick Rapport with Anyone](http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0060YIBLK/ref=as%5Fli%5Fss%5Ftl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B0060YIBLK&linkCode=as2&tag=spacforrent-20): --- > “” --- Stop trying to impress people or “win” the conversation. It’s really much simpler than that. Just listen intently and make people feel good about themselves. **_This piece originally appeared on_** [**_Barking Up the Wrong Tree_**](http://www.bakadesuyo.com/2015/02/love-to-talk/)**_._** **Join over 161,000 readers. Get a free weekly update via email** [**here**](http://eepurl.com/o6uAD)**.** Related posts: [6 Hostage Negotiation Techniques That Will Get You What You Want](http://www.bakadesuyo.com/2013/06/hostage-negotiation/) [How To Get People To Like You: 7 Ways From An FBI Behavior Expert](http://www.bakadesuyo.com/2014/10/how-to-get-people-to-like-you/) [How To Make Difficult Conversations Easy: 7 Steps From A Clinical Psychologist](http://www.bakadesuyo.com/2014/12/difficult-conversations/) _Read next:_ [_Here Are the 3 Steps for Getting People to Pay Attention to You_](http://time.com/3722541/getting-people-pay-attention/?xid=time%5Freadnext) [_Listen to the most important stories of the day._](http://time.com/newsletter/the-brief/?sl%5Fautoplay=true&xid=spl-fullbrief-article) ## Transcript [00:00] [ MUSIC ] The Nantucket Project. Every year, The [00:00] Nantucket Project invites leaders from business, sports, [00:00] academia, government and the arts to give The Talk of [00:01] Their Lives. Before the weekend ends, our audience [00:01] singles out one talk from the dozens they're heard as the [00:16] highest [00:22] impact. I'm a total junkie for story. I read and write and live [00:25] by them and every couple of years, I write some down and [00:28] then I go city to city and read from my books. And over all [00:32] these years trafficking in story, I've noticed a little problem [00:35] which is the standard pieces of good story, at least judging [00:39] by what we teach and also by what we reward most [00:43] handsomely, can get in the way of reaching of what I [00:46] consider to be the Mount Everest of human emotions which [00:49] is to say the very hardest place to get to. But also where the [00:52] views are sort of life- changing, choose acceptance. And [00:56] by accept, I mean, when we acknowledge the nature of [01:00] the beast, and the beast's nature. So, another way to get at [01:04] it is to look at the antonyms for accept, which are reject, [01:08] spurn, deny. Another way to get at it [01:12] is to talk about Temple Grandin, the famous gifted artistic [01:15] woman who knew early on as did everyone whoever met [01:19] her that her mind work differently and rather than deny or [01:22] reject that or try to fix it, she said this is how my mind works [01:26] and I'm going to work with what I have got. And, as you [01:29] probably know, she totally revolutionized the way we treat [01:31] cattle in this country. So I posted, to get sort of real world [01:35] on this, I posted on my Facebook page what have you had [01:38] to accept over your lifetime and what happened after you [01:41] accepted it. And then about ten minutes I got a [01:45] master's degree in higher order processing. My friends [01:49] have had to accept multiple sclerosis, brain damage, stage [01:53] IV ovarian cancer, four types of addiction, losing [01:57] a father to murder, a mother to suicide. Everything [02:02] to a fire, a son who has Rett syndrome, a daughter [02:06] with diabetes, a son who wants to become a daughter. And [02:10] all manner of ****. [ LAUGH ] Boss, [02:15] stepfather, ex. Here's a short list of things that [02:19] we are all invited to accept, over a lifetime. Our childhoods, [02:23] which include the flaws of our mothers and fathers. And the [02:26] cruelties of the neighborhood kid, and the prom date. And [02:29] the coach we thought had our back. Our children and their [02:33] mysterious insecurities and tattoos and scars and lost [02:37] potential. And choice in mates. Our spouses [02:41] and the many thing they do different from us. Ourselves. [02:46] The deadly sins, all seven of them. The weather, [02:49] inconvenient or ruthless. And the irreversible trajectory of [02:53] all human bodies. So clearly acceptance, arduous [02:57] though it is, is going to be required of us. Thankfully [03:01] acceptance gives back. In every single response on [03:04] Facebook the person said that once they actually crossed [03:07] over. They set loose an internal freedom what they've [03:10] never known and that created a possibility for a [03:14] qualitatively different kind of happiness and productivity. I [03:18] got going on this whole acceptance thing about four or five [03:21] years ago when I started working on this book, Glitter and [03:23] Glue, which I thought was going to be about being a nanny [03:26] but it turned out to be about my mother. Who like to say [03:30] your father's the glitter but I'm the glue. [ LAUGH ] [03:31] [ LAUGH ] My [03:39] mother and I have virtually nothing in common. I am a [03:43] dance on the table until midnight extrovert. effusive, [03:47] affectionate, second- guessing, self- doubting woman who [03:50] like nothing better than a long hug and a good cry. And my [03:54] mother, do you watch Downtown Abbey? [ LAUGH ] My [03:59] mother's Maggie Smith. She is an old [04:04] school opinionated woman who like nothing better than [04:06] what she calls a party for one. [ INAUDIBLE ] [ LAUGH ] [04:11] Which sounds a lot more interesting than it is, I assure you. [04:13] [ LAUGH ] [04:15] It's when you pour a nice glad of chardonnay over ice. And [04:18] you take off your bra, and you grab your library book, and [04:21] go somewhere no one can find. Now, I have [04:25] a lot of stories about my mom, and I've been telling them [04:29] my whole life. Like, for instance, she's a chronic regifter. [04:34] And by regifting, she takes it to a whole new level. Which is [04:37] to say, if you were to give her anything, like the bag of [04:40] goodies I got upon arrival, she would open them very [04:43] gingerly. And then she would write in pencil on the bottom [04:46] what it was. And then she would take it home and put it in [04:49] her closet, her gift closet. And then right before Christmas, [04:52] she sets up what she calls the store. [ LAUGH ] Which is in [04:56] the upstairs bedroom that's empty. She lays out all the [05:00] things she's been given over the course of the year. The [05:02] lotions and the candles and the strange scarves. And, [05:07] then puts a little price tag on them and she sells them to her [05:10] children. [ LAUGH ]. [05:13] [ LAUGH ] [05:16] So that we can give them to our aunts and uncles and [05:19] godparents who we've forgotten to buy a gift for. [ LAUGH ] [05:27] And I asked her if she minded me telling you that and she [05:30] said, Betty Moran told me re- gifting is green. [ LAUGH ]. [05:39] But strangely, in the process of thinking her through it takes [05:43] years to write a book. There's so many rewrites and [05:46] conversations. I finally stopped trying to change her. To [05:50] make her more liberal or spendy or outgoing or even to just [05:55] to get her switch from Folger's coffee crystals to brewed [05:58] coffee. [ LAUGH ] [06:00] I understood for the first time that her way of being in the [06:05] world is the right way for her. And sometimes, [06:09] when I'm accepting her, it spills over into my ability to [06:12] embrace the reality of my own children. And even [06:17] occassionally, my husband. Though not when [06:21] he packs the dishwasher because in that case, he does it [06:24] wrong. [ LAUGH ] [06:27] Life Mount Everest, acceptance is a really hard place to [06:30] stay. The air is thin. And I find that I keep falling back into [06:34] the fight for things to conform to how they should and [06:37] should not be. And I think those expectations are [06:40] established. by the conscious and subconscious and [06:44] sometimes totally unconscious pull to narrative. It's [06:48] glorious arcs and it's promising, reassuring internal logics [06:52] that, like it or not, life refuses to [06:56] replicate. So if you think about it, we learn in elementary [06:59] school and then again in middle school and again in high [07:01] school, to look for the five part dramatic structure that's [07:05] underneath all the stories we're consuming. Exposition, [07:08] rising action, climax, falling action, best of all, denouement, [07:13] which is a French word that means untie. But my [07:16] daughter's teacher defined it as the catharsis following, a [07:19] return to normality. Doesn't that sound fabulous? [07:22] [ LAUGH ] Then we graduate into the world and we [07:27] consume and, and produce all kinds of content, literary and [07:30] cinematic and lyrical. And the world says, you want a [07:33] winning story. Give me a character I can root for, take him [07:37] on a journey, and give me a resolution. This goes [07:41] way back, of course, to Homer and Shakespeare, where [07:44] certain appetites were created, or maybe just reinforced. [07:48] For instance, the heroes we love to love are the reluctant [07:51] nominees like Odysseus. The villains we love to hate are [07:54] the unseemly power grabbers like Lady Macbeth, which is [07:58] fine for fiction. The problem is when we start wanting [08:02] and even expecting real regular people to [08:07] behave like the archetypal characters we know from our [08:10] favorite stories. So for a tiny example of narratives [08:14] influence, in politics the reluctant hero thing goes, if [08:19] you really want me to run, I will. Nobody [08:24] ever says I've wanted to be president since I was in [08:27] kindergarten. In my world, the world of writing, it goes, [08:32] I didn't hunt down an agent or corner the editor at the party. [08:36] I was discovered. [ LAUGH ] We lean towards stories of [08:40] destiny. An organic rise confers authenticity. [08:45] And that is established or reinforced, or some unholy cycle [08:49] of the two ,. By story and that might be making it harder [08:53] to set partners and candidates and colleagues who are [08:57] staying in this tiny case, a complex mix of ambition and [09:02] good luck. Speaking of spurning complect, complexity, [09:06] I was watching cable news in the airport and there were [09:08] stories about Hillary Clinton and their doctor who [09:11] performed Joan Rivers' last procedure. And, of course, [09:14] Roger Goodell. Depending on what channel you watch, [09:17] they're idiots or prodigies, schemers or innocents. [09:22] Nobody, it seems, can resist the pull to narrative and [09:26] that's making for a whole lot of anger and intolerance [09:31] this isn't much different of course, than the leaders of [09:33] startups who continually edit their narrative until it seems [09:37] like one predestined step after another. It's all [09:41] totally understandable. But these sorts of legendary rises [09:46] can be fatally dangerous to fledgling inventors and [09:50] entrepreneurs, who were planning to get to the Holy Land [09:53] by surface streets instead of rocket ships. Speaking [09:57] of fatally discouraging, every high school kid I know has [10:00] bought into this powerful myth. Hero works hard. Hero goes [10:04] to Yale. Hero has great life, which leaves the community [10:08] college kids and the kids who worked very hard but got [10:11] rejected anyway agonizing over the unthinkable fate [10:15] that awaits them. And God help the heroes who went to [10:18] Yale and are not having a great life. Most dangerously, [10:22] though, spontaneous narrative structuring happens, and it [10:26] happens all the time, between friends. Journalists talk [10:30] about this thing. It's a tension between truth- telling and [10:33] something they refer broadly, refer to broadly as [10:37] civic uplift. Which is sort of shaping the story to give the [10:41] public what the public needs, especially during times of [10:43] crisis. I think we might all be participating [10:47] in casual civic uplifting. It's hyper apparent now, [10:52] as we all become micro medio, media outlets on Facebook [10:56] and Instagram and Twitter. Presenting thin- sliced versions [10:59] of our lives, mastering the art of the interpersonal headline. [11:03] It's harmless, or maybe this is why teen depression and [11:07] anxiety are at record levels. Because their lives are publicly [11:12] and quantitatively less populated and eventful [11:16] than @ jennygogo's. And Ryan and his 764 [11:21] Instagram friends who follow him everywhere. Where long [11:25] form nuanced interaction is concerned. We're so out [11:29] of practice, we almost don't know how. I was recently in a [11:32] room of adults. And a kid was behind us on the floor, [11:34] making this crazy collage that made no sense. And while [11:38] some of us are sorta awkwardly struggling to get a [11:41] conversation going with her, her basketball playing brother [11:44] came home and everyone spun around and said, did you [11:47] win? What was the score? The team lost it turns out, [11:51] because the refs were blind. And voila, we had a villain. [11:56] Here was a plot we all knew how to discuss. All the while, [11:59] the already kid noodled on the floor behind us with her [12:02] amorphous project that nobody knew how to talk about. [12:05] Speaking of things people don't know how to talk about, I [12:08] had cancer in my 30s, and it was kind of stunning how [12:12] many conversations that year included. Was it in your [12:15] family? You're so brave and what a wake up [12:20] call. I totally appreciate that it is unbearable [12:25] for bad things to just happen unbidden. I feel the same way [12:29] all the time. But the truth is, that after every one of those [12:33] conversations I felt a little heavy hearted. Like I couldn't [12:37] give them the civic uplift they were asking for. I don't have [12:41] the genetic predisposition which would have been a nice [12:43] first chapter of my story. There's not one heroic thing about [12:47] me, and though it would have been nice to claim that [12:50] cancer reprioritized my life, I didn't need a wake up call. I [12:54] already knew that I was lucky. We do this for [12:58] a lot of reasons besides the biggie which is our kind of old [13:02] as time caveman craving for order and reason. One [13:06] reason is to establish consistency. So we want to feel [13:09] integrated across the stages and compartments of our [13:12] lives. I call it the interview effect or the first date effect, [13:16] which is when you're. Job as Class Secretary in tenth [13:19] grade led to your Organizational Development Degree at [13:21] Stanford which led to consulting for the Fortune 500 which [13:24] led to the creation of your firm. And [13:31] then you know, look at the pain that's caused by perceived [13:34] inconsistencies, like gay christians or libertarian artists [13:38] or philanthropic dopers. Another reason we do it [13:42] is to suspend reality. I mean who really wants to face an [13:46] impending financial reckoning? Or deal with a souring [13:50] marriage? Who wants to say their candidate blew it? Or [13:54] that some problems cannot be straightened out just by [13:57] cleaning house? And sometimes we artificially flavor as a [14:01] means to invention, so we articulate this vision using all [14:05] the heartening beats of narrative. And it's an essential step [14:09] in creating something new. We tell our investors and our [14:12] job candidates and our early adopters the story of how our [14:16] essential whatever. Emerged organically from a latent [14:20] need only we could see. But the [14:24] simplified narratives that we're creating and projecting and [14:28] consuming, tempt us into forgetting that family, more than [14:32] the milestone birthdays, is a dicey damn business. And [14:37] marriage has hardly a thing to do with anniversary dinners. [14:41] Products often fail and policies usually come up short one [14:44] way or another. All the Photoshopping, literally [14:49] and metaphorically, is leaving us feeling ripped off when [14:52] our heroes have colossal blind spots. When our most [14:55] important relationships go in circles. And when catharsis, [15:00] followed by a return to normalcy, is nowhere to be found. I [15:04] do know a few people who seem to live with a kind of [15:08] radical honesty, who rarely negate or reject that [15:12] which makes them uncomfortable. One is my cousin Kathy [15:16] who lost her 19 year old, the great, but not perfect [15:21] Aaron Zentgraf in a car accident. She told me once that for [15:25] many years she asked herself why did this happen and [15:29] she finally figured it out. It happened because it can. [15:35] Cars can flip, glass can break, metal can pierce. [15:40] Seeing that clearly, accepting the unadulterated [15:44] reality, set her free. So here's [15:48] a few things that we can do. Check in daily with complex [15:52] content. Long- form journalist, journalism. I still love [15:56] The New Yorker but I'm also reading everyday on [15:59] medium. com. Literary fiction. HBO. Have you seen [16:03] The Leftovers? [ APPLAUSE ] Yeah! My one person. But [16:07] that's really com, that is really complex storytelling. [16:13] To be on guard for the cognitive moment. When people [16:17] become characters, when a series of events becomes a [16:20] plot, when endings become tidy. I know that I'm [16:24] tacking on a [ UNKNOWN ] when I hear myself invoke [16:27] destiny with lines like, I could have told you from day one, [16:31] and absolutisms like always, only, everyone. [16:36] Catharsis is created, not found. Which [16:40] means, all resolutions, and this is such great news, is of [16:44] our making. And maybe our best defense [16:48] against narrative creep, and the unnecessary, and [16:52] sometimes, even crippling dissatisfaction it can generate. Is [16:56] to keep at least one confidant on all matters. [17:00] A real friend, with whom we trade the unadorned truth of [17:04] our lives. Non- conforming, inconsistent, notably deficient [17:08] in many areas. That's the shared reality we're being asked [17:12] to accept and that's the mountain I hope to summit before [17:14] it's all over. Maybe I'll see you there. 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