--- title: Rainbow Rowell Talks Fanfiction, Fifty Shades and Jonathan Franzen description: The author is headed to BookCon in May to talk about her upcoming novel, Carry On canonical: https://time.com/3714753/rainbow-rowell-interview/ author: Nolan Feeney article:opinion: false article:content_tier: free article:published_time: 2015-02-19T15:00:38.000Z article:modified_time: 2026-08-04T07:59:52.400Z article:section: Entertainment og:title: 'Eleanor and Park' Author Rainbow Rowell Talks 'Fifty Shades' and Franzen og:description: She talks to TIME about her new book, 'Carry On' og:url: https://time.com/3714753/rainbow-rowell-interview/ og:site_name: TIME og:image: https://static.time.com/v3/assets/bltea6093859af6183b/blte697571e72d9b39f/69877ff25f570f1687b15596/rainbow-rowell.jpg?branch=production&width=1200&quality=75&auto=webp&crop=16:9 og:image:width: 3785 og:image:height: 2129 og:image:alt: Rainbow-Rowell og:type: article twitter:card: summary_large_image twitter:title: 'Eleanor and Park' Author Rainbow Rowell Talks 'Fifty Shades' and Franzen twitter:description: She talks to TIME about her new book, 'Carry On' twitter:image: https://static.time.com/v3/assets/bltea6093859af6183b/blte697571e72d9b39f/69877ff25f570f1687b15596/rainbow-rowell.jpg?branch=production&width=1200&quality=75&auto=webp&crop=16:9 ---  # _Eleanor & Park_ Author Rainbow Rowell Talks _Fifty Shades_ and Franzen > Sponsored content. 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Terms and conditions apply. * Savings buckets are a feature of Ally Bank's Savings Account. * No ATM fees from Ally Bank at Allpoint and Moneypass ATMs plus we reimburse for fees charged by other ATM owners nationwide up to $10 per statement cycle. * Early direct deposit offers eligible direct deposits up to two days sooner. * Spending buckets are a feature of Ally Bank's Spending Account. ## Video: E.L. James and Fans Talk 'Fifty Shades of Grey' [Watch (HLS stream): E.L. James and Fans Talk 'Fifty Shades of Grey'](https://cdn.jwplayer.com/manifests/HbsVgTNO.m3u8) (7:09)  _Published 2015-02-05. In 2012, TIME spoke with 'Fifty Shades of Grey' author E.L. James in one of the few on-camera interviews she has appeared in_  by [Nolan Feeney](https://time.com/author/nolan-feeney/)  ## Nolan Feeney Feb 19, 2015 3:00 PM UTC  Rainbow Rowell Rainbow Rowell  by [Nolan Feeney](https://time.com/author/nolan-feeney/)  ## Nolan Feeney Feb 19, 2015 3:00 PM UTC What do you call a work of fiction about another work of fiction that first appeared inside _another_ work of fiction? You might say fanfiction, had Rainbow Rowell not written all three. The acclaimed author of _Eleanor & Park_ and _Fangirl_ just announced she’s headed to [BookCon](http://www.thebookcon.com/) on May 30 to discuss with [Tumblr’s Rachel Fershleiser](http://rachelfershleiser.com/bio) her upcoming fantasy novel, _Carry On_, and its unusual origins. The novel, out in October, follows a young magician at a Hogwarts-like school named Simon Snow, and he’s already familiar to Rowell’s readers. The protagonist of 2013’s _Fangirl,_ Cath, was obsessed with a massively popular fictional book series about the adventures of Simon Snow; parts of the fictional series, as well as Cath’s own fanfiction, appeared throughout _Fangirl_. TIME recently spoke to Rowell about building a fantasy world from scratch, _Fifty Shades of Grey_ and how that _Eleanor & Park_ movie is coming along. **TIME: So what** **_do_** **you call a book like this?** **Rainbow Rowell:** I think it’s just straight-up fiction. Some people have said, “Oh, you’re writing fanfiction for your own book!” I don’t think it’s fanfiction, I think it’s more like canon! Because even though Simon Snow is fictional inside of _Fangirl_, I still had to make him up. He still feels like he’s my character. **What’s it like writing your first fantasy novel?** I’ve always read so much fantasy and science fiction, but before _Fangirl_ I didn’t think I could write fantasy. Maybe because I worked at a newspaper for so long, I didn’t feel I could let go like that. When I wrote _Fangirl_, writing the Simon Snow parts were my favorite parts, and they came really easily. Nobody said, “This fantasy part sucks!” So I thought, “Maybe I could do this.” My brain was ready to go there. **Did** **_Carry On_** **emerge from the leftover Simon Snow segments that went unused in** **_Fangirl_** **?** They didn’t really make it into the book. The Simon Snow I was writing in _Fangirl_ was a different Simon Snow. When I was writing as \[fictional Simon Snow author\] Gemma T. Leslie, I envisioned this feeling of British children’s literature and had a very traditional middle-grade voice. When I was writing Cath, it was more of what a talented teenage girl writing romantic fantasy would do. Neither of those voices are me. When I started writing my own Simon Snow, it was more what _I_ would do with this character. **The characters of Simon Snow play a small part in** **_Fangirl_** **, but from the fanart and fanfiction created about them, they’re just as beloved as your other characters.** For people in fandom, that’s actually ideal. Sometimes the characters that people love most in fandom are characters like Draco Malfoy. You can do a lot with Draco Malfoy because there’s not much Draco Malfoy in the _Harry Potter_ books. You get some of him, but there’s so much to fill in. **I’d imagine that building out a magical world where anything goes would be incredibly fun but also overwhelming.** Anything goes, but you also don’t want your world and your magic to be just like someone else’s. I would think, what sort of magical things are community property, that every fantasy story has? And what is too much like that book I read in sixth grade? I would get stuck and have to remind myself that I don’t _really_ know how the magic works in my favorite fantasy stories. I don’t really know how the Force works, and when George Lucas tried to explain it to me, that was very disappointing. I get really confused if I talk specifically about the magic in _Harry Potter_ or _Lord of the Rings_. I try not to get too bogged down about how it works. It’s magic! There’s no rational explanation to magic! I just tried to be consistent. When it breaks down is when you break your own rules. **Has the public perception of fandom and fanfiction changed since** **_Fangirl_** **came out?** It was already changing. It’s such a huge and a popular thing that I don’t think it was going to stay counter-culture and quiet. When I wrote _Fangirl_ I had to explain what fanfiction was to a lot of people, and I don’t have to explain that much \[today\]. That will continue because the _Harry Potter_ generation is growing up. The _Harry Potter_ generation is the generation where fanfiction really became a big deal. Even if you weren’t writing fanfiction yourself, you know it’s there, you’re just much more fluent in the internet. And in its way, _Fifty Shades of Grey_ introduced a lot of people to the concept of fanfiction, even if they got the wrong idea. **You obviously aren’t freaked out about fanfiction the way some authors are, but does something like** **_Fifty Shades of Grey_** **make you nervous — that someone could go in a direction you maybe wouldn’t approve of, one that could eclipse your own work?** If no one told you this is _Twilight_ fanfiction, in my opinion, you would never know that those characters are Bella and Edward. I don’t know how Stephenie Meyer feels. Maybe she feels it’s too close. I felt like that seed had been planted pretty far away from the source material. I don’t think ideas are as clean and separate as we think they are. Everything is derivative in a way. What you write is often a reaction or a response to the things you’ve read. I’ve read fantasy my whole life, so when I first sat down to write a fantasy novel, I was responding to all of these concepts of what it meant to be the chosen one, what it meant to have the gift and responsibility of magic. Definitely there is fanfiction that takes my characters in a direction that I wouldn’t intend for them — almost _all_ fanfiction. They’re taking it away from the path that I’ve charted. It doesn’t really bother me. **Did you see Jonathan Franzen’s comments last week about young-adult fiction being** [**“moral simplicity”**](http://booth.butler.edu/2015/02/13/a-conversation-with-jonathan-franzen/)**? What did you think?** I didn’t see his quote, so I hate to respond to a quote that I didn’t see, but it’s a common thing to say. If he said that, he’s not alone in saying that. I don’t think people would be saying that if YA wasn’t popular right now. A lot of people look at something popular, and they’re dismissive of it because they don’t understand it. If you think YA is simple, you probably haven’t read a lot of it. But YA is not a genre. It’s just this really loosely defined category of books. If YA had always been this popular category, a lot of books we think of as classics would be YA. _The Catcher in the Rye?_ Without question. Also, I don’t know that people _just_ read YA. So I don’t know what he says, but I’m familiar with the argument. **How is writing the screenplay for** **_Eleanor & Park_** **?** I have finished a first draft, and DreamWorks is talking to a possible director. **Does adapting your own book feel like doing surgery on your own children, as I’ve heard one author describe it?** It felt more like trying to like transmogrify a dog into a cat and keeping it alive. I think it would be easier to adapt someone else’s novel or write a screenplay from scratch. It was difficult, and I’m sure it will continue to change. It’s just like learning how to do it on the job. _Eleanor and Park_ is a tricky book because almost everything happens internally. There’s a lot unsaid. I had to figure out how to show it in the screenplay, but whoever directs the film will ultimately make those decisions. A movie belongs to a director much more to a screenwriter. **Will you be on set and involved in casting in the way John Green is with the movie versions of his books?** That really depends on the movie company and the director and how involved they want me to be. It’s someone else’s party. There are some directors who find the author really helpful, and there are others who are like, “I need to stay fresh and do my own thing.” Which I would understand because the director of the film has a completely different job. So I’m for it, I’d love to be involved. What I want is a director who really can make it happen. I want that more than I want to be involved. ## Transcript I had discovered the box, I would think, the way most people did. It was word of mouth, passing of a whisper. My friend Vanessa came up to me and said did you read 50 Shades of Grey, and I said no, I've been in a writing slump and she said you need to read it, and you need to do it now, and you need to wear a pantyliner. [ CROSSTALK ] The night of the event, I was sweating, I was schvitzing. [ NOISE ] They came in, in droves. They came in, in limos. They came in car services. They drove it, Long Island, Westchester, Connecticut, New York City, up town, downtown. [ APPLAUSE ] They were all there to see E. L. James. [ APPLAUSE ] I'm completely and utterly stunned by the reaction to these books. I'm completely. [ INAUDIBLE ]. Just having it on my own Facebook page, I had 650 RSVPs for this event, in two days. [ INAUDIBLE ]. You have changed every mother, and if you're not a mother, every woman's life. Basically it's a love story, a love story with a kink is what I like to call it. [ CROSSTALK ] Hold on. [ CROSSTALK ] Okay, I wanna know if any of this is based on any truth of your own ****. [ LAUGH ] Well I read the books to myself. It's, it's my fantasy written large. And Christian, in Christian, I created this kind of mystery man. He's very good looking. He's very good at sex. He's disgustingly rich. He's every, everyone's dream in a way. Well, he's certainly my dream. His answering grin is dazzling. [ INAUDIBLE ] onto the sea once more, and I think I forgive him. [ APPLAUSE ] I wrote Twilight. And I loved it. And then I discovered, Twilight fan fiction. And then I came up with the idea for what would eventually become 50 Shades, and I wrote that. To me, cuz I was also a huge Twilight fan. And why do we love it so much? First of all, the way that you write is unbelievable, like, I feel like I'm there. And second, it's a sense of security. Like, when he found her at the bar. When Brother Patterson found her when she was about to get raped. Like, all, it's like a sense of security j a little jealousy, and good sense. So as a way you describe it [ CROSSTALK ]. No, it's doing the right thing. Is it a right time? [ CROSSTALK ] [ LAUGH ] My husband was a little jealous. He didn't say that he was jealous, but he was a little short with me. At first it was cute with him, but then when I was not paying attention and reading at night as opposed to watching a show that we usually watch together. He would get a little bit like, you're reading that book again? I'm like well that book is gonna get you lucky later so, shh. After we have a child sometimes, you know, you just let your, everything changes in your life. It's about your children and it's about running your career, your career, your job and your work and your home and whatever it is and sometimes you forget. To [ NOISE ] At the book signing someone told me they have never had a orgasm before and they're 43 years old and they had an orgasm. Someone told me they had an orgasm just reading the book and I just thought really? What's your name again and just signed the book very quickly. I mean, you know, it's, it was extraordinary. I love when she uses the periods for emphasis. It changes the whole dynamic of the writing. You are so beautiful he breathes. I stare up at his dear, dear face. Bathed in the intensity of his gaze, it's as if he's seeing me for the first time . >> I'm sorry, I don't know what came over me. I curl up in his lap inhale his heavenly Christian smell, feeling same regardless of the fact that he's mad. Me neither, where would you like, he murmurs. He runs his hand up my bare leg to my thigh. Besides, this dress has its advantages. And before I'm even away of it, he's unzipping his pants, pulling me astride his lap and sinking into me. I grasp the back of the chair, my feet just touching the ground, and we start to move. Men are visual. You know, you walk in, in lingerie. They immediately are, like, oh, my God, yes, that's what I want. Women are not necessarily that. For me, it was that voice that was in this book, Christian's voice. Like, everyone's trying to connect. To cast Christian. And yeah, there were all these beautiful actors that I see out there. But for me, it's my husband's voice. I think that's it also. I think I was reading the book and I think I became Anna a little bit. Not that, that we're so similar. I mean, we are in certain ways that I like, the way she kinds of, you know, stood up for herself. But. We all wanna be taken control of a little bit. I'm wondering kind of what i've noticed is that what Anna achieved in the world is not something that you can spell out, but what she has really done is changed. This woman female character changed this man. And I think that's really at the core of it, where we can't change our mates, and we are told this by every psychologist on every show, and in every magazine article, you cannot change your man. Men, you cannot change your woman. And she changed him. And I think that's a huge attraction for women who have been married and going through life and raising their children. That wow, she actually did it. None of us did it, but she did. [ CROSSTALK ] That's the fantasy side. We have a man here! It's a decision that you have to make. Do I want go with this beautiful, flawed, damaged man, or not, because he comes with so much baggage. He has a lot of baggage. He's a fixer upper. It was a little bit about the sexual part but it was mostly about this innocent woman who was able to change Mr. Gray. I felt like the diva in how, in her empowered her and that was the uplifting part of the book, the romance part, the changing. The, given into each other. [ CROSSTALK ] They like to think that love can conquer all and redeem and heal and I mean, the story is about unconditional love, really, underneath it all. I think. Oh my. He wants me. Christian Grey, Greek god, wants me. And I want him, here, now, in the elevator. Honestly, I can't even breathe. 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